I understand what you are saying Dave. On the issue of Bishops having day jobs, and the time constraints on attending debates, I wonder with my admitted lack of experience whether there is not a way in which a better rotation system can be worked. But also a lot of valuable people who are fully trained and experienced, at the aged 70 cut off might be enabled to be part of that rotation system in a balanced way, ie if a debate has x number of seats maybe one current bishop and several retired bishops who may be available might be able to support. It may already happen but it seems like a good solution to a manpower problem. I just feel that support is the most precious thing you can give to the people in debates the public and as a service to God, A God who is seen is never a has been!  and with prayer support in both houses and in all the chambers that is a good place to be.

Angela

Bowman

You can buy Lord of the Journey on Amazon i do not think it is on kindle though.You might be able to get it on the us Amazon.

what should Christians do about the conditions that make euthanasia plausible?" what would you say?

I think the first thing i would say is that plausability can be argued two ways, ie it could be  defence of the debate or it could be the case against the debate.

The conditions however are another issue.

This also can be a double edged sword some may say that providing comfort and not interventional care is the way to go

Others may argue that interventional care should always occur.

I think i might say that the conditions which make euthanasia plausable, are the catch 22 situations that governments and religion and other services put upon the sufferer and carer and sometimes the two are one doubling the impact.

I am stating a case for choice where the conditions which make life unbearable cannot be altered. I am suggesting that because the social structure of this country leaves many isolated if not in person in circumstance making everything harder,

It is a similar arguement as  Giles but with the difference that although he is right that we should care for one another it many instances the another does not exist.

Angela

Is it true that Bishops are not taking their seats to vote on important social issues in the house of parliament both as Lords and the Commons?

Knowing the spiritual and social significance of this i find it hard to believe, it makes me think that something else is at play, ie are the sessions designed to give a conflict of interest? or are the Bishops actually being bribed or threatened, oh yes it does happen, if not threatened are they being belittled and bullied?  I genuinely find it hard to believe that a Bishop would not take the opportunity to register concerns. The accusation came from Frank Field who i understand has sat on the Synod, so i fear it is true. So we should know why I accept that it my be voluntary but if payment is involved i certainly seems foolhardy not to at least sit and earn money for charity. I also understand that the conflict of interest may  make it difficult, or is it the bishops way of wanting disestablishment whilst at the same time wishing to be informed, if this is the case , i do not think that that is fair to the Christians of this country who need you to be their voice in the words of Eddie Askew one voice many voices. As Bishops you should not underestimate your value to the political process, even when others do.  Well and as for threats, like we will stop donations or pull funding if you are right you can mangae without them. Christ is free he is not for sale and neither are your souls or the souls of politicians  and certainly not the souls of the Christian et el who support you.

Angela

Is it true that Bishops are not taking their seats to vote on important social issues in the house of parliament both as Lords and the Commons?

Knowing the spiritual and social significance of this i find it hard to believe, it makes me think that something else is at play, ie are the sessions designed to give a conflict of interest? or are the Bishops actually being bribed or threatened, oh yes it does happen, if not threatened are they being belittled and bullied?  I genuinely find it hard to believe that a Bishop would not take the opportunity to register concerns. The accusation came from Frank Field who i understand has sat on the Synod, so i fear it is true. So we should know why I accept that it my be voluntary but if payment is involved i certainly seems foolhardy not to at least sit and earn money for charity. I also understand that the conflict of interest may  make it difficult, or is it the bishops way of wanting disestablishment whilst at the same time wishing to be informed, if this is the case , i do not think that that is fair to the Christians of this country who need you to be their voice in the words of Eddie Askew one voice many voices. As Bishops you should not underestimate your value to the political process, even when others do.  Well and as for threats, like we will stop donations or pull funding if you are right you can mangae without them. Christ is free he is not for sale and neither are your souls or the souls of politicians  and certainly not the souls of the Christian et el who support you.

Angela

I really feel for Janet, i dont know how may people have registered that the highest crime statistic in west wales was actually domestic violence! I am sure if you look close enough you will find the connection between the attitudes towards women, and the scenario, that forced Janet resign. They have no respect for well qualified women at all.Janet is well qualified she taught me a few lessons nearly 20 years go so she is hardly a novice but they broke her. It seems to me that a way has been found to avoid criminal proceedings against those who have in a co-ordinated fashion bullied her out of post. This has to stop there is also a direct connection to child abuse tht goes with these attitudes. And i will tell you i am quite frightened saying that in case some idiot tries to harm me.  No it is rarely physical in these instances it will be practical and financial and by male clergy doing things like actually physically turning their backs,  that may work  to prevent riots in istances like mass protest, but when it is used everyday as a method of intimidation ! that is different.What kind of faith are we promoting it is ok to abuse women in some circumstances?

Shame on them!!! but i am also aware that male clergy who support women are treated in the same way, we have to ask the serious question is the church authorities really capable of monitering their own staff, and arethe procedures to protect employees complete. I think this shows they are not.

Angela 

Yet again Giles addresses the issue of euthanasia, I find his arguments against it very difficult. His stance is that (a) he wants to be a burden on his family that they may be a burden on him (b) that he believes as a decent society we should look after one another.

Whilst i accept that this may be an ideal situation it is not the situation for many of us, I think of Kate Adies' book "the kindness of strangers" and i think of the "Samaritan" the listener of the stranger, i don't understand why Giles Does not understand that many will die in the presence of strangers not among-st family, when we die we wont be allowed to be a burden, if we are lucky we will be medicated heavily to prevent us being a burden if we are not in the current climate we will probably get an ASBO for dying in the wrong way at the wrong time, but i am being facetious now!

Of course i believe we should look after one another but it does not happen in the vast majority of cases. Unlike many years ago when the social structure of society was of close knit communities living close to one another , as well as medicine not being so advanced people did mostly die amongst family, but now we do not have family connections in the same way , some have never had it, the church will not step in and fill the gap in the same way either.The thou shalt not kill argument loses context in situations where people are artificially kept alive . I know there are many who have had lifesaving surgery including me  and we live longer much longer than we would do naturally . But when people are worn out, when they despair when they are depndant for every need , it is neither irrational nor not understandable, that they might wish to end their lives in a way that relieves suffering not  only for themselves but for others by relieving them of the burden, how many times when you have been with or spoken to someone have they watched the clock, life is to precious and there istoo much to do to spend it suffering . But Giles you are not the first person to have said, that they want to live long enough to be a nuisance, and i have achieved it many times already. I just think that whilst we may endevour to make the end of life as comfortable as we can the pathway o death programme has sme credibility. BUT i must stress that i accept  that secretly putting people on a pathway to death withot consent is tantamount to murder whih is a diffeent scenario, so what we have is a situation where this issue should be discussed openly real choice should be given, and with confidntiality and proper security measures people should be enabled to state how they wish to die and where.

 Bowman There are seveal points in answer to your question .The first and most important to deal with is "legal obligation". The issue rather than problem with spirituality and legal obligation is that spirituality works out of the box of legal framework and of course the law is the law. However there are two points one is that the true spirit of God will never break the law, but it will work to change it if it is unfair or wrong, and secondly the title refers to support for the clergy , not for the person they are councelling. Now in Britain we have the BAC which is the British Assocation for Councilling. Now all who council will have done the work required and will be certified, even those who have studied in Theology college, it is some protection and the BAC can be contacted so that the qualifications of a person are checked out. I did a  Councilling course for instance past both parts, but my husband died during the process so i was not allowed to practice for at least two years which meant by that time it had to be done again, This is very important because the title says "support for clergy" now we know the clergy are only human beings which are also vulnerable to all that humanity has to offer including attacks death rape poverty drug abuse, all of these life issues can be as much a part of a clergies personal life as well as the lives of those they serve.

Supervision is vital and being aware of how something is affecting the way you work is just as vital, but in some instances one may find that the way a clergy wishes to serve does not include councelling , maybe the just want to preach and play an organizational role of facilitating services to provide councilling, However i would question that approach, and would consider it to have real risk, i and it is my personal opinion , do not believe that it is fair of the clergy to preach the gospel instructing people how god wants them to be self sacrificing in their worship and service to God when th are not willing to deal with the issues that are created by it. One example might be telling a family you should give 10% of your income to please god but the clergy do not deal with the problem of debt which that family encounters because they do it. So in that case proper council has to be given about budgeting and it is difficult to do from an oppulent manse. I have heard the arguments i work hard or this , but poor people work hard to !!

Bowman

"that self-consciousness has become a habit, so that we are convinced that none of us is reducible to the categories of which more traditional societies are built up-- sex, class, race, etc"

surely, the revolving door can sometimes simply disorientate, I am not sure that i follow your thinking on this one, for surely it is because "we are convinced that we are reducable to the traditional categories that traditional societies are built up on, ie sex ,class and race".

Relationship and communion with God when we are one with God in that space of spirit and union with others in the same space, is the only time when we are not reduced to the confines of "mere humanity" as a paralell to John Stotts "mere Christianity" There are times in all of our lives when who we are how we are and what we are transcends beyond what we are capable of being, but for a co-ordination against the odds of circumstances which somehow just happen to be.

But it does take the courage to enter and exit the revolving door for how do we know who we are in Christ without comparison, How do we know our calling if we only look in one place, but never the less it is a disorientating experience. The problem of trying to anticipate the shape of our calling which is to all things new is difficult when our experience is the traditional the way it has always been.

I am wholly convinced of my own humanity and i am also now convinced of the humanity of all other human beings, no one is favoured by God in the humanity stakes.However I still find it difficult that "religion" and "church politics" which are non human entities dictate and lead the way that Christ is worshipped and celebrated by those who wish to work within the constraints of humanity yet want to acknowledge their spirituality.

Being concious of the self is because of religion and church politics, yet it is because we are reducable to sex, class and race that we need time to worship and celebrate spirituality in Christianity that has Christ at the center and not the musings of the vicar in the pulpit, having said that it is still most odd to hear a strange voice from behind a screen at a distance as is the case in many RC and C/E churches, which gives the impression that God has sent a detatched voice which bares no relation to the physicality God gave us. For instance Christ sacrificed his life at the age of 33 years it was surely his relatively young age that made the crucifixion so apalling, for if it had been Abraham say at about 100 years old would it have seemed more acceptable in human terms if it had been considered that his humanity was coming to a natural end, where would the impact of the sacrifice have been?

The revolving door is not always about age but about the amount of times you go round and the experience you pick up on the way, but this has to be done without being disorientated and keeping a firm hold on the faith we have whilst being able to understand the faith of the other.

Angela

Of course it is true that clergy need help to counsel those with depression, I thought that this has been accepted practice for many years, at least 25? The difference being that in the beginning it was not a legal obligation and so was very hit and miss, but now supervision is supposed to be common practice. I have always thought, that the difficulty in this area of ministry is when you have academic clergy or administrative clergy, because considering the overall financial and business side of ministry and church practicalities makes it very hard to accept the importance of pastoral care. I used to think it was a man thing you know both my late husband and my current husband were practical men they saw/see the solution to emotional issues as practical problems that can be solved practically, ie don't talk just do!! there is a place for that. However just doing is greatly impeded if say you have accidents because you are upset or concerned, sometimes you have to think out of the box and untangle what you know of God , what you see and what you hear. That does not come from academic detachment but from sharing and finding a way to express with and alongside those you serve in the name of Jesus. That can only be done if it is accepted that there are risk involved for all concerned an those risk are addressed, so that all can be whole in Christ. Humanity is what we are made of and what we share , Jesus is who we believe in and worship, none of us are divine, but all of us recognize that  divinity and spirituality is what gives us life and peace, when we believe.

Angela

user 5050 and Bowman

i think that the explanation for this is simpler than it would seem. The church does have a moral duty, but the opinions as to what that moral duty is differs between bishops. I see it like this that for some to deviate from the O/T original text of the bible would be a failure of moral duty to remain true to their calling as they understood it. This may sometimes seem like nastiness and certainly if they feel threatened i m sure that they are not beyond being blinckered. The distinction between relationship and procreation being defined a the union of male and female in marriage, now th deviation of humanity appears to them to come purely in the form of the  fact that natural procreation cannot happen between people in same sex relationships. However they fail in this to take account of all the other deviations in relationships, where they would not refuse to marry a couple. This could be lifestyle  choices which are not condusive to a healthy relationship or parenting. I feel that a couple however that is defined that chooses to make a commitment for life is better blessed and guided by god than it is without. I undertand  the concern of the bishops, but i also see that to reject people who are not able to be the people some think they should be would seem to show a lack of trust in Gods ability to see and hear all things and to be in control. As i understand it trusting God is not just about believing him when eveything is in order and the way we think it should be ,but believng him when nothing is as it seems it should be.

I do believe that the church is there to repond to all who call on jesus it is also there to enable people to call on jesus. Unconditional.

user 5050 and Bowman

i think that the explanation for this is simpler than it would seem. The church does have a moral duty, but the opinions as to what that moral duty is differs between bishops. I see it like this that for some to deviate from the O/T original text of the bible would be a failure of moral duty to remain true to their calling as they understood it. This may sometimes seem like nastiness and certainly if they feel threatened i m sure that they are not beyond being blinckered. The distinction between relationship and procreation being defined a the union of male and female in marriage, now th deviation of humanity appears to them to come purely in the form of the  fact that natural procreation cannot happen between people in same sex relationships. However they fail in this to take account of all the other deviations in relationships, where they would not refuse to marry a couple. This could be lifestyle  choices which are not condusive to a healthy relationship or parenting. I feel that a couple however that is defined that chooses to make a commitment for life is better blessed and guided by god than it is without. I undertand  the concern of the bishops, but i also see that to reject people who are not able to be the people some think they should be would seem to show a lack of trust in Gods ability to see and hear all things and to be in control. As i understand it trusting God is not just about believing him when eveything is in order and the way we think it should be ,but believng him when nothing is as it seems it should be.

I do believe that the church is there to repond to all who call on jesus it is also there to enable people to call on jesus. Unconditional.