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46 forum messages posted by
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 1 [12044] Posted by: Kurt | Tuesday 14 July 2009 - 08:34pm |
All right, now, it’s done. Let’s move on to issues that are of more importance, like world AIDS, fighting hunger, stopping global warming, etc.
The ACNA is not going to be “recognized” in place of TEC by the C of E. Maybe those folks in FOCA will do so, but that’s about it. Many in the Global South will also ignore both ACNA and FOCA, and continue their relations with TEC and the C of E as usual. In nine years, there will probably be another Lambeth Conference (with a new A of C) and TEC will be there. Probably ACNA and FOCA will not. These are the facts on the ground. Get used to them.
Kurt Hill
Brookyn, NY |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 2 [12074] Posted by: Kurt | Wednesday 15 July 2009 - 02:02pm |
Your readers should check out Father Scott Gunn’s analysis of Bishop Wright’s essay for a devastating refutation of its basic assertions. http://www.sevenwholedays.org/2009/07/14/when-tom-wright-gets-it-totally-wrong/ Kurt Hill in Brooklyn |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 3 [12113] Posted by: Kurt | Thursday 16 July 2009 - 04:03pm |
“I know this is easy for me to say as a heterosexual, but for the moment and for the forseeable future, I think gay people simply have to put up with this injustice. There are bigger, and more important, things for us to put our energy into than having openly gay bishops.”--Peter Waddell This is not a matter of simply “having openly gay bishops,” it is about a refusal to exclude some of the baptized called by God to the ordained ministry simply because of who they are. Listen to what you are saying, and substitute “people of color” or “women” for “gay”. You should be ashamed of yourself. About 250 years ago, Evangelicals helped to lead the way in opposing social injustice inside and outside of the Church. Since the rise of fundamentalism a century ago, however, evos generally have gradually become part of the problem, not part of the solution. Yes, you have grown in numbers, but so have the fundamentalists in all other religions as well. We hear so much from evos about “a majority of world Anglicans” (a “majority” of whom probably can’t even read and write). These people are stuck in a pre-industrial, pre-scientific, backward mindset. And they are dragging down elements of “The West” who should know better, with them. It’s time to call a halt to the descent, and to re-embrace the best elements of Transatlantic Civilization. (Unless, of course, you prefer the Mugabes and Akinolas of the world to the Tutus and Jefferts Schoris).
Kurt Hill Brooklyn, NY |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 4 [12129] Posted by: Kurt | Friday 17 July 2009 - 02:42pm |
I apologize for verbally striking out at you, Peter Waddell. Frustration sometimes makes one snap at people. |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 5 [12213] Posted by: Kurt | Wednesday 22 July 2009 - 06:47pm |
TEC Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori has issued a letter to the Church about General Convention, which was held July 8-17 at the Anaheim Convention Center in California. The full text of the Presiding Bishop's letter follows: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/79901_112789_ENG_HTM.htm Kurt Hill Brooklyn, NY |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 6 [12247] Posted by: Kurt | Friday 24 July 2009 - 05:41pm |
Note to Pageantmaster: Whether TEC is “in” or “out” of the Anglican Communion has no bearing on our right to keep our properties from evo and anglo-papalist pilferers. TEC existed long before the Anglican Communion was formed in 1867 (and, I’m sure, TEC will exist long after the AC dissolves, flies apart, or whatever.)
Kurt Hill
In beautiful Brooklyn, NY |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 7 [12255] Posted by: Kurt | Saturday 25 July 2009 - 03:28pm |
Second note to by: Pageantmaster: Your friends in ACNA are not what I consider “faithful Christians.” I’m sorry if my American directness offends you, but from my perspective here in the New World, they are liars, thieves, and schismatics. The fact that, numerically, many in the Anglican Communion have sympathy for them is of little significance to most Episcopalians I know, since quality is more important to us than mere numbers. Not that it matters much to me, but don’t kid yourself; if TEC (and the AC of C) were “expelled” from the AC there would be major repercussions and reverberations throughout the Anglican globe, including in the UK. Long-term, I don’t think history is on the side of the evos and anglo-papalists of the AC, whatever their temporary advantages might be today.
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 8 [12259] Posted by: Kurt | Saturday 25 July 2009 - 06:00pm |
So, carl, that’s where you get your knowledge about TEC--from J. R. R. Tolkien? I might have figured as much.
Well, my friend, it’s also a fiction that TEC membership is simply melting away. In fact, we’re holding up at least as well, often better, than other Mainline denominations here in America. And with the departure of the backward-looking minority who have been helping to cause disruption for years, even decades, we now have the possibility of catching our collective breathes. Many of the properties, it is true, will be utilized by diminished congregations; but this may well give us the incentive to go out and do more evangelizing, wot?
Kurt Hill In Kings County, NY USA |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 9 [12260] Posted by: Kurt | Saturday 25 July 2009 - 06:17pm |
Nersen, your observation “Americans, especially young Americans, don't seem to care much” about religion is accurate as far as it goes. What passes for “Evangelical Christianity” here has been in the forefront of the right-wing offensive against gays, immigrants, people of color, women, etc. for nearly 30 years. In no small measure, con evo dogma has helped to discredit Christianity in general, especially among the younger generation. Once we Episcopalians “get our house in order” perhaps we can do something to change this picture. Even now, most “progressive” parishes I know of (including my own here in Brooklyn) are growing modestly, not shrinking. Kurt in Brooklyn, NY |
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 10 [12275] Posted by: Kurt | Sunday 26 July 2009 - 03:51pm |
“You make the case for recognition of ACNA very well.”-- Pageantmaster
Of course, you are welcome to try, but I doubt that you will receive much more than ¼ of the vote as things now stand in the UK.
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 11 [12277] Posted by: Kurt | Sunday 26 July 2009 - 04:30pm |
"TEC will exist long after the AC dissolves"--tjmcmahon (selectively quoting me)
Or whatever. Some folks here on the Fulcrum site are so certain, eager in fact, to be rid of TEC‘s presence in the Anglican Communion. Certainly, our elected leadership, both clerical and lay, have made it very clear that we will not quit, walk away from, voluntarily depart, etc. If TEC (and the AC of C) are pushed out, well then, interesting things may begin to happen on a world scale that many con evos and anglo-papalists are not prepared for. Certainly, it’s very foolish to assume that 35 provinces will be left with Canterbury after such expulsions, and the ecclesial shock waves they are bound to cause. Beware of unintended consequences.
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| General Convention Rescinding B033 and the consequences | |
| 12 [12293] Posted by: Kurt | Monday 27 July 2009 - 02:25pm |
“The impression I get from reading the missives and utterances of the TEC leadership is that TEC is gradually moving from Anglicanism to Unitarianism.”--Iconoclast
That’s interesting. Some evangelicals have been saying that about TEC since the Rev. James Freeman took King’s Chapel Boston in the Unitarian direction around 1785 or 1787.
“Such moves as there are in England were in General Synod where signatures of 1/4 of Synod and 8 bishops were obtained to a request for a debate on recognising ACNA. This is a pretty much unprecedented level of support for such a request as far as I am aware, and it is likely that the matter will be debated at the next Synod in February.”-- Pageantmaster
Certainly, it is unprecedented for your General Synod; but as I said, I doubt that such a position will receive much more than that percentage next February. As you know, there are plenty of people, regardless of their feelings about Bishop Robinson, etc. who believe that extending recognition to ACNA would be very unwise, for a whole number of reasons. In fact, I would think that our affirmation of support for the Anglican Communion, as well as the clarification of the mind of the General Convention, would make recognition of ACNA less likely than six months ago. It should put to rest the anxieties of some who fear we will simply shake our sandals free and walk away from the mess. And, of course, until an additional partnered gay person is consecrated a bishop of TEC, even the formalities of the now-dead “Windsor process” are being observed (at least by our side).
“I know that it is not your personal responsibility Kurt, but many of us wonder why TEC wants to be in Communion with us, when it pays no attention to anything we say? We are left wondering: what do we have in common, and is the trouble which results from TEC worth all the effort others go to? I personally have never wanted to see TEC expelled. However that does not mean that anything goes and that includes losing the majority of the Communion who think that TEC is taking the mickey.... as we say over here.”-- Pageantmaster
Well, that’s an interesting question. I guess it matters what you mean by “us”. If by that, you mean English con evos on the one hand, and the anglo-papalists on the other, then most Episcopalians I know of would rather not have much to do with you. Certainly in the con evo department, there are plenty of such people in the multitude of Protestant sects in this country, so we need not go abroad to find them. Anglo-papalists, though, are almost as rare as hen’s teeth here. As long as such people are not pushing their agendas on us, or trying to expel us from the Communion that we were instrumental in creating in the first place (along with the Canadians), then we can live with them if not in the same apartment at least in the same building.
If, on the other hand, what you mean by “us” is liberal Catholics, Broad and Low Churchmen/women, then most of us feel right at home. But I guess, at least for now, one cannot be in communion with the latter without at least offering to be in communion with the former--some of whom have already refused to continue in communion.
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