A veritable Open Diapason!

Trying very hard to avoid making other organ puns, I find your comments from the vantage point of the organ bench to be very apposite. I do wonder, reading some of the blogs, whether I want to be in communion with people who not only think but express themselves like that.

But then of course I remember that Christ died for them too, that God loves them too, and that love is an act of will and not a feeling

Hi, Good morning,
A humble pew-sitter here, (well, an organist actually, but you get my meaning).
I have this morning spent just thirty minutes going through various blogs of the 'Orthodox' and conservative persuasions within Anglicanism. And I have here a list of words and phrases extracted from those blogs, all written during the last seven days.

Fence-straddling.
Vapid.
Evasive.
Puffed-up.
(spiritually) blind.
Hissy fit.
Idiot captain (of C.of E.)
Irrelevent
Betraying the Communion.
Shifty touchiness.
Fat-cat bishop.
Grovelling (for favour).
++Ruin.
Discountable (senior cleric of the  C.of E.).
Ranting.
Fulminating.
Dweeb ....... don't really know what one of these is, but it sounds rude..
Apostate
Wallowing in heresy.
Sign-up (to JD) or stand aside.

This has been one third of the full list.

All of these terms are used in referring to one or other of just three people - namely, Bishop Tom W, Archbishop Rowan and Archbishop John S.

I feel that the proponents of Gafcon(ism), FoCA  and the like, may have just a smidgeon of a problem with presentation here.
Or, frankly, any movement subscribing to the Christian ethic, which indulges itself in this graceless, gratuitously insulting manner of address, really does have a long way to go in the hunt for hearts and minds to its cause.

Chris Baker, Durham UK

Nersen, I am not sure about being too busy; it is simply that most people I work with do not talk about matters such as sexuality, biblical interpretation, women bishops et al. I have been here 4 years, and not once have I been asked to proffer an opinion; although I have volunteered one at times. Issues like marriage in church following a divorce and baptismal policy are matters of constant debate. I minister on the west coast of Cumbria (a beautiful spot) and things that occur 'down South' are a million miles away. The majority of churchgoers have come to appreciate the ministry of female clergy, despite their initial misgivings.

I am not sure what I am waffling about here. It is I guess to suggest that for lots of people they will be trying to work out what it means to be Christian within their own context now, just as they were before Monday's decision by Synod... and they would be doing just the same if the motion had been defeated. Similarly, they know nothing about GAFCON or Lambeth... but want to edge towards being authentically Christian. I believe that I can help them do that without introducing them to the niceties and nuances of current theological debates.

You are right, I could be more outspoken myself

Kevin

Tim, I agree that it would have been good if all the 300+ GAFCON bishops came to Lambeth.....but the ABC knew that the largest provinces of the AC and our own +Rochester and +Lewes would not come if he invited, against the advice of Fulcrum and +Durham, those in TEC who knowingly and deliberately tore the fabric of the Communion in 2003....he made a choice. I can see some of the reasons why he made that choice but  I can also see why hundreds of bishops do not want to spend 3 weeks in "indabas" with doublespeaking TEC bishops -  a complete waste of time given the conference is designed to make precisely zero decisions....

Tim - sounds like you underestimate the value of your contribution....and how much it is needed. We cannot just leave it to Tom Wright and a few others....unless it is clear that people like him have huge support, we will continue to see the rights-based agendas of a few triumph, even at the cost of unity.

All are needed to stand up to false teaching.....everybody has their primary responsibilities and I agree those come first -  but if all focussed just on those and left it to others to tackle false teaching in the church, the CofE will slowly begin to look just like TEC ..........because those who want to see the authority of scripture diluted on certain issues in the CofE are certainly not sitting back but campaigning vigourously.....and winning "an inch at a time".

I guess, Nersen, that if I could do anything (other than pray) it would be (in an ideal world) to get all the Bishops who went to Gafcon to go to Lambeth as well, though we must admit it will take a mighty move of the Spirit (and some serious lobbying by better connected people than me) to achieve this.

Nersen,

I never said I don't want to do anything about it, just that what i do is done locally; we discussed Gafcon and the synod vote briefly at PCC of one of our parishes last night; there was not a great deal of concern about either. We have since we arrived been careful to ensure that the evangelicalism of this particular parish remains faithfully biblical, and is not closed therefore to other traditions.

By God's grace the church is growing, and the congregation's desire is to see their community transformed by the Spirit of God. They know that who the bishop is doesn't make any difference to what God is doing among us.

Like many posters on this forum I share Gafcon's mortal stance, but not their ecclesiology, and again like many others I am deeply troubled by the events at St Bart's but actually it is not my job or place to spend time and energy i don't have making a big stink about it, as I am not the Bishop of London.

(not so) timid Tim

Tim - what I find hard to understand is that you say, "Let me stress I am worried about what's going on, from St Bart's to Jerusalem".....but you don't want to do anything about it and think that those who do should maybe should refrain...not sure this is a wise strategy.

Reading what Paul said to timid Timothy, I don't think we are supposed to get on with local work and ignore false teaching in the church -  it is our responsibility  (I said "our") to confront it.....or the good local work will face greater obstacles in the future.

That's right Kevin.

After all, to the people to whom we go in mission, does it actually matter who the bishop is or what he/she  believes or says about gays, women etc?

 Do we have any evidence that the salvation of the lost is in any way inhibited if they happen to live in a diocese with a bishop of any particular hue?

The answer for me to both these questions has to be a resounding "of course not". With due respect to Steve who mentioned he was leaving his church because it has got on board with GAFCON, God is bigger than all of that, and his grace will not be inhibited by human frailty.

That's what's been so annoying for me about the media coverage of GAFCON and Synod, it is a distraction away from local theology and local evangelism - if I want to talk to people at the school gate or in the pub about Christ now, chances are I'll have to wade through some awkward questions about what people have been reading in the papers. I don't mind, but I'd rather be able to cut to the chase - it should be "what think ye of Christ?", not "What think ye of Peter Jensen or the Bishop of Beverley".

Let me stress I am worried about what's going on, from St Bart's to Jerusalem, but if we don't believe that somehow God is sovereign and will prevail in spite of our pathetic squabbles, we may as well pack it all in now.

Tim - nice clarification...very amusing!

Dear Kevin

I appreciate how busy you must be. (I work about 60 hrs per week....sounds like you do more!)

Perhaps it is important, however, to put in front of your good people the bigger struggles to maintain the authority of scripture in the CofE and the AC....given they will be seeing their church in the news and need to know  what is at stake and why some, like Fulcrum and AM, do so much work to keep the church faithful to its foundations.

Best wishes

Nersen

Nersen

I simply make the point that we get steamed up about things that Christians of good conscience everywhere are not that concerned about. It does not mean that GAFCON et al are unimportant, but at least for the little flock I have responsibility for they are concerned about what it means to incarnate Christ in their local area, although they might not put it quite like that.

Therefore for me to think of discussing GAFCON, Lambeth or indeed Women Bishops would be irrelevant to those whose cure of souls I share with my Bishop

Kevin