I think that that is a fair reflection pluralist and celinda from different perspectives..I understand about the issue of need to get under the radar or alternatively think out of the box.

The question then has to be in a competetive market , both secuarly and religiously how is the isolated person or church or shop protected without insult.

.What do i mean by that? what i mean is who wants the services, ministry, or friendship of anyone who makes it clear that spending half an hour with anyone is bad enough never mind working with them..Does anyone want to be fitted into someone elses framework or community to boost numbers and finances in order to advance them whilst being isolated themselves.That is to pick up on celindas point where people are allowed but never fully accepted as an equal, there is something rather derogatory about the way that these situations are formulated, for the individuals are usually people who cannot take responsibility they are individual for their own ends but corporate when it suits them..Both in business and the Church which is first and foremost a business..

Getting under the radar can sort out the wheat from the chaf.. 

Luke 19 2-16

Luke 19 17-34

Quality and individualism is i believe about filling that gap..Every one who makes a difference is under the radar, and individual and they give quality..

In Peace

Waterangel

It isn't just about high value customers. It is also about known people, like in a parish, so a small shopkeeper gets to know the customers, can divide the produce into smaller portions (not having to do the supermarket BOGOF), and may even be flexible about payment. There is also conversation that takes place that enriches the basic exchange. Small shops have ways of getting under the wire, so for example computer people with their own shop access parts in ways others cannot and can build what the customer wants, and usually can be competitive about it.

In other words, the liberal, individualist approach is also set within a community, and both customer and supplier use flexibility to make a difference in a setting of mass marketing and upmarket choices in large superstores.

I understand pluralist, the essence of the small shop is that personal service and quality is the aim however this does tend to be selective, nothing wrong with that sometimes..But there has been and can be a bullying mentality about it ie its about choice..If i go to my local butcher who is the local farmer and he neither knows me or possibly does not like me i dont nessesarily get a good service, and possibly i cannot afford not to..If i go to a compendium (larger multiplex etc) I dont get the service but i may get the fairness of goods..

In the same way Small churches, or long standing large churches can be selective about who they do or do not serve choose or care about..The history amongst longstanding members can lead to cliques and some sermons are meant to be understood in terms of community .

If you do not have any links in the community, they do not serve you very well..Also local people attend local churches, there is a privacy / and confidence issue..Like the school bully at the gate to be ignored by a church member in the supermarket by someone who smiles at you whilst they take the collection can be quite anxiety provoking This was the Church paralell to the small shop idea i made..I would also stress that this is why having a strong personal faith independant of the church is both nessesary and preferable..but it is isolating..

I hope that you understand what i am saying..When I say independant of the Church I am referring in context to the M&S image, that if you build your faith or your Ministry on the basis that , that which goes on in church, or theology colleges is the reflection of the way it behaves outside of the church that would be incorrect..

With the delay in posting i wondered  (a) is my subscription up to date (b) have they understood the point relevant point i was making!! ie It is not the image of how people look but the image of how they are spiritually and consequently emotionally received..The farmer, the butcher , the shopkeeper is the paralell to God, The Clergy, and the Public..

in peace

Waterangel

The small shop for Unitarians idea is about individually tailored products of quality for a generally known clientele of not great numbers, able then to forego some of the benefits of mass production but compensate with quality. It could be expensive, but sometimes the small shop is able to be competitive when it makes its produce in the back. I am thinking of food shops, but another example might be computer sales, where you either go mass market and get a product that is full of things and capabilities you don't want but as cheap as chips, or you develop a relationship with a computer builder who gives you precisely what you want and looks after you afterwards even if that's only to pop into the shop and have a word about something that is puzzling.

You are right in your observation celinda..

The thing that can become very confusing for, non christians or new christians is that no matter what denomination the "small shop idea" concept can apply..I wonder if it is more to do with the geographics and population rather than the said church..That i suppose would be right in terms of the church meeting the needs of the local population...The clique problem can occur anywhere it takes a completely engaged clergyman to prevent it..The alternative though can be that noone properly relates and the consequence of that is everyone doing their own thing and lots of people in a community feeling isolated..Apart from those in the inner circle or with strong community links or alternatively generations of family and friends attending the same place where the common language of prayer can be turned into the common understanding of the "in prayers" a bit like in jokes..

I believe in ecumenicism I think that perhaps you cannot have ecumenicism without unitariaism..For i suppose you need to be slightly liberal and open to changing ideas even a different approach to litergy etc..But i personally do not particuarly like a mish mash of traditions, I am not uncomfortable in different approaches to the gospel according to which denomination unless they oppress women, but i am uncomfortable if the is no real definition of belief..Do you understand the point i am making?

Watrangel...

ps  I have spell check on word but it oes not work on this page do you know how i can make it work?

I think Unitarians must like small corner shops with individually produced products sold on the premises.

L Robers and Stuart

What is our lives coming to when Theological debate is about custard creams and m&s or waitrose..LOL

i was wondering what if any denomination you are leading or part of.Only you keep mentioning must be Anglican, i think i am missing something apart from brain cells that is and i really am missing them..really

.I began as a baptist, so dress was not an issue and the dog collar was only worn on high days and holidays,The person who wore it though did not do so as a status symbol they were the most genuine person in Christ I am ever likely to know..I appreciate the sentiment and dedication behind the dress code of the church, but of course though we may put on the armour of God to survive, if the dress code is a symbol of leaving "churchy things behind" on thier removal that is not good.

M&S was the posh shop when i was younger,and waitrose was their offshoot.lol

However the issue was really about whether we judge by what we see, and whether it is fair, also whether the Church as an institution, buisness , or caring community is balanced and representative of the people..Is Christ at the centre or are the administrators so that Christ cannot be attained by anyone suited booted or casual..I only picked up on the issue because I know that Church is about show and detatchment whereas The church is merely the vehicle by which we travel in faith to a personal relationship with Christ

Christ is about Love worship service, and attatchment..

I wonder if you can only do church when you will accept everything you see and hear??even though it is a human being in a collar saying it..Oh for discernment!!

People come to a belief in Christ in so many ways and in so many circumstances, Christ meets us where we are at..

In Peace

Waterangel

'This is not just a church; this is an Anglican church." Presumably'

I loved this ! I thought M & S was 'low class' (!) as we have Waitrose deliver ! :-)

I do think that the church in its visible form can represent all..For it is about looking beyond the surface..I said about the starched white dog collar, I actually have a lot of respect for it, but i also see that it can be a barrier because it goes alongside the M&S image..Which I whole heartedly plead guilty to..

As with the dog collar preparing to worship for me is as much about physical presentation as well as spiritual, that is not to say it is essential but when it is possible for me I dress in a way that enables me to relate to God..This is what happens with clerical clothing and the preparing of the elements isn't it..?? I should say i am generally like that I recognize that god is everywhere

Of course i accept that to New comers it may look a little starchy, but that is part of the christian journey, its the best bit really learning that all is not as fiersome as it may first appear or that what motivates a person to dress or act as they do.  The example of security attained..It is the visible differences in dress colour and style of worship that makes us representative ..Even in a multi faith society our stance is to serve without judgement, not to be doormats but servers..I just feel that we none of us need to drop our image but we need to be less image concious and more accepting of all classes..

Yours in Peace

Waterangel