John, I have not quit the fray and intend to reply to your post but am currently short of time.  Watch this space as they say.

Pete B

Hi I have read the write up by carrie, I still stand by the comments i have made, and i feel that there is always something that many forget when looking at the issue of male/female ministry.

That is that if as i do you believe in the garden of eden whether actual or metaphorical, the intention at the beginning of creation was that there was Adam, who was given a helper, companion in Eve.

 The original intention from the beginning would be that both genders would support one another, however that went out of kilt with the introduction of temptation and the humanity, real humanity that God gave humans. Faced with choices out of the comfort zone origionally given, they unfortunately made an error of judgement. The consequences of that judgement, from then on altered not only the genetics of people but also of the earth.  So all battles whether over homosexuality, or men and women began there, that very fact means that women assisting men in ministry on equal terms actually takes us back to Gods original intention for humanity and the world. All arguements about this matter simply repeat the original sin of disobedience to God.

I noted that she was ordained by David Hope, of whom unbeknown to him i have very fond memories as Graham(my husband) and i went to hear him in March 1999 whilst we were on our honeymoon, it was the 175th anniversary of the RNLI as graham was a boat builder it was the ideal service to cement our marriage. If you are out there David or John Sentamu do you have a copy of the service because we do not have one but it would be nice for us to have one.

Waterangel

I posted this before, but it didn't get onto the site, so am trying again.

The article/leaflet cited does exist, but wasn't produced by Sevenoaks. It's by Carrie Sandom, and can be found on the Reform site here:

http://www.reform.org.uk/pages/bb/womens-ministry.php

Read it and judge for yourself...

That is interesting John, and quite serious.

On the thread topic of the absence of men in the church, in the Telegraph, Ed West suggests that it may not be so much about the treatment of women, but the degree to which church caters to men:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100025531/the-church-of-england-does-lack-testosterone/

John

I would not want to be unfair to Angus or anyone else. The incident in question was also quoted in the daily mail. I personally would not believe any impression given by any website, i know that the ability to make things look and sound good online , does not mean it is, or that it is not.

The fact still remains that victims of clergy, do not get heard,  and when they are they are repetitively silenced; Sometimes the women are clergy.

However, Fern was making the point that he could have chosen differently, to give a more equal impression. I am not a feminist or anti church, anti clergy or anything anti really only anti abuse of what ever form which means that women or men for that matter, or clergy are not afraid to get themselves heard by the relevant authorities when necessary.

I take on board that one would need to know all the people concerned and the geographical area, as well as the history or projected thought patterns involved in order to make an accurate assessment and comment.

It still continues to disturb me that the pulpit can be misused to make points that can be disturbing to the general congregation and they have no way of challenging what is said. If it was a TV or Computer you would switch it off but in the middle of a row in a church, where a preacher intimately touches your soul knowing most are there because they want to please God is unacceptable..I will believe it has been dealt with when I know that what a Man/Woman preaches matches the way they treat people. IE dont preach about Christ being there for the vulnerable, and then make them vulnerable by removing their voice.

Having just read Mark Odens defence of his stance i have to say i find him quite terrifying. That should in my opinion be enough, for him to consider why? i know another clergyman who had his attitude 10 years later the damage is still there WHO CARES no-one.  What is the point of mission CMS BMS or any other if the people under your nose suffer. So no-one listens, and people like these men continue to excacabate the abuse many women and children suffer. How can you prevent child trafficking if women should be seen only if they are lucky and not heard. Many a bruise is covered that way. Online advertising does not show bruises.

The last time I was in a position where i needed to express such concerns was met with the response of  "i hope you are not saying that to get us to take it seriously" I couldn't believe what i was hearing as the said person had been charged. So yes i am saying this knowing you probably will be dismissive of it. But also knowing that if anything happens, the alarm has been raised, and I feel it deserves to be taken seriously, and that something should be in place that alleviates the fears and risk of abuse as a result.

Waterangel

The leaflet that is referred to does exist, but it's not a Sevenoaks publication. It's by Carrie Sandom and is on the Reform page. Here's the link - make up your own mind.

http://www.reform.org.uk/pages/bb/womens-ministry.php

Nerson

it is possible that Angus gets so many women in his congregation because they do not know they are being abused. For surely no-one on here can believe that he is right to tell them to be silent, free will and all that you know the weak and strong need i go on. I think that the format for bullying should be looked at, how come these people accept that nonsense from him, are they frightened? of what they could lose if they object.

Some british women will not go into churches where they are belittled and intimidated from the pulpit. I would Love to tell you it does not happen but i know it does manipulative , bullying language from the pulpit, the only way you do know it is not of God is how they communicate and use or misuse the women of the church, is the reactions to when the supposed boundaries are pushed. I can testify to that. Who needs the BU when I can B Me.

Waterangel

Laurence -  except for the fact that Angus gets about 400 women of all ages (half his congregation) attending each week........    Ever wonder why your "liberal" churches do not attract so many British women?