John,

What's the biblical basis for the quote from Max Warren?

Best wishes

David Baker

Speaking of starting points, some profound observations from Canon Max Warren:

"...... God has not left himself without a witness in any nation at any time. When we approach a man of another faith than our own it will be with a spirit of expectancy to find how God has been speaking to him and what new understandings of the grace and love of God we may ourselves discover in this encounter.

"Our first task in approaching another people, another culture, another religion, is to take off our shoes, for the place we are approaching is holy. Else we may be treading on mens dreams. More serious still, we may forget that God was here before our arrival. We have then to ask what is the authentic religious content in the experience of the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist or whoever he may be. We may, if we have asked humbly and respectfully, still reach the conclusion that our brothers have started from a false premise and reached a faulty conclusion. But we must not arrive at our judgement from outside their religious situation. We have to try to sit where they sit, enter sympathetically into the pains of their history and see how these pains and griefs and joys have determined the premises of their argument. We have, in a word, to be 'present' with them."

From Warren's General Introduction to John V Taylor's famous work, The Primal Vision, (ondon, 1963, SCM, pp 10-11)

I appreciate Graham's article and thoughts. Thank you. It is just that I would start in a different place. It would seem to me, from Scripture, tradition and reason that we believe in a God who makes Himself known to us. If God lives in us, transforms our mind, renews our heart, changes us from one degree of glory to another, this God is constantly making Himself known through us. I know, we fall, mess up, misrepresent, refuse this love. But irresistibly, unconsciously through and despite us God is made known in our living in His name. It is not a question of can we, or should we, share the gospel with people of other faiths. God is making Himself known to them in all sorts of ways, and by Christ in us, to those who are searching for that name.

The tricky bit is not to let the voice of God be stifled by the trappings of Christian religion, and this takes some conscious effort on our part, constantly to let God be GOd, and make Himself known in ways that are appropriate to those of other faiths. We are not to say that all religions lead to God, and search for the lowest common denominator to unite us, nor to say that only by becoming a follower of Jesus as I am a follower of Jesus is one to be called a Christian.

I am sure that Jesus transforms all human searchings for God, offers His name, His love through all our longings for Him however misguided other Christians may find those religious practices to be. Why, He shows Himself  to Francis through a leper, to Ignatius in his weakness and incapacity, should He not also visit the mosque, the synagogue, the temple and offer life to those who search for it.

I am probably not making myself clear, neither does God quite often. My limits of expectation prevent this. ~God will shine forth, like shining from shook foil, and gather to a greatness as Hopkins so memorably states. The question is not so much about we should speak of Jesus to those of other faiths, we cannot refrain. It is only by speaking and living with self respect, and honour for all made like us in  the image of God, that we can hope for the gift of tongues, and get the language right to work with, rather than against, a self revealing God.

Sarah

So I read through the five reason, and there was one reason conspicuous by its absence.  That would be the reason that has motivated Christian evangelism for 2000 years.  People who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are going to suffer the eternal wrath of God.  We don't evangelize because "it takes the whole world to understand the Gospel."  We evangelize because of the eternal consequences that attend the rebellion and idolatry intrinsically connected to unbelief.  People who are not Christian will die eternally if they are not evangelized.  How can we withhold the Gospel from them.

carl

'I believe Christians should be involved in patient, dialogical evangelism among people of other faiths, and not keep Christ to themselves, for at least five reasons'.

So there might be other reasons? Are we agreed that one of those other reasons is the fact that all human beings are faced with the wrath of God from which only Christ can deliver them?

Phil Almond

Dear Graham,

Wouldn't we also want to give as reasons, indeed perhaps as our top reasons...

(1) the fact that Jesus Himself commands us to "make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28v18-20)

(2) the uniqueness of Jesus (Colossians 1v15-17)

(3) the fact that the gospel "is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1v16), and

(4) "How are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!' " (Romans 10v14-15)

Best wishes

David Baker

>Third, God in Christ is not tribal.

But the church often is, and the portrayal of God in the Hebrew scriptures seems intensely tribal in places.

Does it even make sense to try to prove anything about Jesus from the Bible - isn't that a bit like trying to prove that women can fly from reading Mary Poppins? Scripture has not intrinsic authority, faith accords authority, and there can be no appeal to a non authoritative authority. What one can do sometimes, is demonstrate how the scriptures tell some truth which a person already believes, and this can help him to suspend his disbelief in respect of other things the scriptures say that they didn't already beleive.

People in 1st century Judea already expected the Messiah, and believed in God, so it was a different matter for apostles to prove to Jews that Jesus was he - they could point out where the life of Jesus coincided with the prophecies. Proving that Jesus was the Son of God to a Muslim is a completely different kettle of fish, not least because the Muslims have their own scriptures which already mention Jesus and hold him in high regard. Starting from the position that the Qur'an is wrong and the bible is right isn't going to get one very far. Starting from common ground is, in my experience, the best way. For instance, the central Muslim teaching concerning the meaning of the arabic 'islam' and the caliphate have many correspondences with Jesus teaching on the Kingdom. Any devout Christian who is willing to sit down with a devout Muslim and compare notes on the teachings of the prophet Muhammad and the teachings of Jesus, particularly in respect of what they say about about mankind, is likely to make a friend and ally amenable to deeper theological discussions.

:-)

Definately Yes whenever there is an opporunity. But its a bit like when you have a disagreement with someone and mediation is called for, if you discuss your faith, you have to be prepared to listen to another persons faith.

The Great thing here as i see it is that both parties can understand each others perspective but neither has to accept the other perspective in this country. Should we expect the same privilidge in another country maybe not. That is how we choose to live.

Having said that i am acutely aware we have lost the freedom in this country to express our faith openly in the way we used to but that is not the fault of other countries leaders but the fault of our own leaders and the general populations apathy and the taking for granted of religious freedom.

We then have another problem to deal with and that is our responsibility to the vulnerable under the UN convention, when one persons religion dictates that certain abuses are part of a faith system intervention is both required and nessesary, so we ask the question is Christianity a defendable faith of example when it comes to human rights. The consistant answer unfortunately is the bible and Christianity is but Christians are not. We behave in the same way as other faiths when it comes to the issues of Women and sexuality. If we continue to contradict our own faith in this way then other faiths will not take us seriously.

We get back to the issue of is it possible to have interfaith dialogue and live peacefully, well i was recently on Mount Sinai at the site of St Catherines Monastry and the burning bush, where there is a Mosque an Orthodox church and an RC and Christian church they have all been there since 400 BC that would indicate to me that interfaith is neither a New or unworkable concept, where people worship alongside one another holding on to their own belief whilst not having a need or desire to prevent another from following thiers.  Jesus shared his message but he gave free will as to whether it was accepted, that is the example we are given. As christians we can have a real desire for people to embrace Christ as thier Saviour but it is niether right nor wise to force it, which is why we stand apart from other faiths, We have to try and be an example of what life can be like when Love and freewill are the motivating force.

This is the reason i get so concerned when we have public disputes about women in the ministry and homosexuality because one cannnot be preaching the loving saving grace of Christ and be actively obstructing the path of people who want to to promote the gospel, it is not our place to judge what is perceived as sin but Gods and that happens in eternity. If you dont agree with homosexuality in the church go somewhere else if you dont agree with women in positions of authority go somewhere else but dont try to socially engineer people and the world to fit the personal framework of thinking.  remember the words  "set apart for you Lord, ready to do your will"

Waterangel

Today a Muslim I'd never headr from before emailed me out of the blue and asked me if I could prove that Jesus said he was God in the Bible. At first I told him yes, but that I really didn't want to enter into a religious argument with him. He then emailed me back and said that must mean I couldn't. I then proceeded with my "You asked for it" reply by providing several links which addressed his very question. He emailied me back. and apparently hadn't bothered to read any of the material. So, this time I answered his question, and showed the verses realting to how Jesus said He was God. He replied back saying the Bible couldn't be trusted. LOL! This is the pretzle logic Muslims use; prove it to me by the Bible, and when you can the Bible doesn't count anyway. 

Fortunately I don't live in a Muslim country where I might have been persecuted or jailed for having rejected Islam, as happens to many Christians.

We have just published on my Fulcrum Newsletter for July 2010, 'Should Christians share Christ with people of Other Faiths?'. This is being co-published with The Times online, Faith Central, on Monday 5 July 2010, and relates to debate in the July session of General Synod and the General Synod paper, 'Sharing the Gospel of Salvation.'