Dear Friends

we have just published 'I have a dream...' by John Martin.

please use this thread for discussion.

blessings, Jody

Thanks for this John--your four final points are very challenging.

I often describe a place like St John's (Nottingham) as a 'worshipping, learning community' and point out that, though as a theological college we are not a church, this is a quite good description of a church. In fact, from the New Testament (both in vignettes like Acts 2.42 and in longer discourses like 1 Cor) it is difficult to think of a better definition of the ekklesia than a 'worshipping, learning community.'

Thanks for this encouragement John, as a young minister, leading a church in out suburbs in Australia these are the same issues we are facing. I had previously found myself attempting a theology of work and you've inspired me to reinvestigate my thinking.

I like your challenge of Harvest Festivals for the things we use for work now. I wonder should the church celebrate tax time?

There is no doubt that Christian liturgy still reflects agricultural and feudal society, but if it modernises then it ought also to modernise its thought forms. The fact that it doesn't modernise suggests it is too risky. The Wesleys could get away with it - just - but not since. Intelligent people and working professionals are critical and rational people, and that might be too much threat for the apparent 'givenness' of Christian beliefs.

Just bizarre to have a unitarian lecturing Anglicans on what 'intelligent people' and 'professionals' think..... how many unitarians in the UK.....fewer than 5,000.... in a country of 60m...... seems like 'intelligent people' in the UK may have taken a view on the unitarians....?     

The same cracked, worn-out record. For the record, one that I put on only from time to time, I am not a member of Unitarian anything but a friend of and attender - I am just a member of the 60 million, the vast majority of which have no or next to no contact frequent or otherwise with any church or religion.

perhaps best to get back to the worthwhile piece from J Martin for the CofE...... and to ignore irrelevant and deliberately disruptive comments  (from what liberal blogs would label a 'troll' ie an opponent being merely disruptive)  ..... but I cannot help commenting on the wonderful irony eg the boring repetition of 'cracked record' .... and from someone  repeating again and again their non-Christian and non-Anglican views despite zero relevance in Anglican discussions given (no membership or contribution made)........as if the CofE and AC should follow advice despite the evidence that hardly anyone anywhere is intererested in eccentric ideas pushed repeatedly (see unitarian terminal decline and website readership?)......still, again ironically, referring to what 'working professionals think  ...... 'cracked record' indeed.......    anyway -for Anglicans,   J Martin's piece is important......some churches I know do exactly what he is suggesting and it works with hundreds of 'working professionals' in every week...... but not because of networks per se, of course, but because the gospel is preached.......   networks etc without the gospel are not going to work anywhere because there are much 'cooler' networks to join......... but   we should use networks etc as they can be very helpful.  But, without the gospel, the CofE will slip, as much of it is already, into irrelevance and closures, just like the unitarians....... we will only see hundreds and thousands gathering in churches, as we do in many COfE churches every week, where the gospel is preached.  

John,

I would like to raise several disconnected points:

1. I think interest in his blood is the language of inheritance rather than commerce.

2. You refer to Methodism several times as middle class. I think that Wesley's original audiences were primarily working class. A middle class ethos (depending on your definition) belongs to later generations of methodist.

3. I wonder if the Aldersgate experience should be held up as a norm or was it recorded because it was exceptional.

4.Yes businessmen like to make out it is easy to run a business. If they are Christians they have time for Christian work. If not they have time for the golf cub. Perhaps it is Christians doing personal work at the golf club. By all accounts starting a business is hard work, but once it has grown you may be able to delegate more. There is a great danger in taking ones eye off the ball in these rapidly changing times.

5. It may be possible for students to think about their faith at the same level as their academic studies. Although  few for them master the languages, After that there is simply too much to do in professional life to have much time for Christian education.

6. witness at work becomes a natural subject for discussion when the church has events which support it such as Alpha.

Dave

Hi John,

I really liked what you had to say and it is a subject that burns heavy on my heart too.  I have been back walking in faith for 3 years now and for the first time there was a  mention of work at my church. In all the numerous Christian events that I have rarely heard anything mentioned about God in the workplace. 

It is only in the last year that iI have really connected with my faith and my work are interlinked and that there is a space for God there. In fact I know now that God is as central to my workspace as he is to my liturgy and worship. Getting to that place of understanding has been incredibly powerful as I began to see my worklace as my mission ground.  Step by step I began to let my team know whent they were ill or going through tough times that they were in my prayers.  I began to share some of the things that I was involved in and they became 'my people of peace'.  We spend so much of our time with our work colleagues, they should see our Gospel lived out in action.  They, like our families should be able to see the transforming work of God in our lives and the fruit of the Spirit in action.

In the two organisations I have worked in latterly one public sector one private, I have found that it is possible to bring faith into the workplace as long as it is done sensitively and begins with influencing gently those around us. But it has been trial and error because there is little teaching on how to introduce God into the workplace.

We spend a lot of time thinking about Missional Communities, how we might reach our parishes and communities for God.  But God is right where we are at and He uses us in that space to touch the people who are around us. For many that is our work colleagues and teams. I am not sure I fancy praying for my laptop or blackberry.  But I have learned that praying for the people I work with, for the situations I face and the decisions that I have to make, makes a difference.  I try to place God at the centre of all that I do and say; and remember that for me not to be glorifying Him at work is as sinful as any other sin.

I also think that all Christians are called to leadership, it should show itself first within our families and workplaces as we seek to lead them towards our God. So as disciples of Jesus we are leaders seeking to create and develop fellow followers.

I have attended a number of Christian conferences recently, at every one those in leadership in the church were prayed for, commisioned and blessed.  But at no point were those of us who are Christians in secular leadership even covered in prayer.  I am absolutely convinced it is a difficult and precarious world to be a Christian leader in the church.  But it is likewise a very difficult and precarious world for those of us who live to be Christs salt and light in our workplaces 1 Timothy  2 says ;' urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all peopl for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior" I have learned through my church and Christian events to pray for those in Christian ministry in the church.  I believe we need to be praying more intentionally for those whose who minister in the world of work too. Because only when we combine the sacred and the secular will we see the reality of 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Hi John,

I really liked what you had to say and it is a subject that burns heavy on my heart too.  I have been back walking in faith for 3 years now and for the first time there was a  mention of work at my church. In all the numerous Christian events that I have rarely heard anything mentioned about God in the workplace. 

It is only in the last year that iI have really connected with my faith and my work are interlinked and that there is a space for God there. In fact I know now that God is as central to my workspace as he is to my liturgy and worship. Getting to that place of understanding has been incredibly powerful as I began to see my worklace as my mission ground.  Step by step I began to let my team know whent they were ill or going through tough times that they were in my prayers.  I began to share some of the things that I was involved in and they became 'my people of peace'.  We spend so much of our time with our work colleagues, they should see our Gospel lived out in action.  They, like our families should be able to see the transforming work of God in our lives and the fruit of the Spirit in action.

In the two organisations I have worked in latterly one public sector one private, I have found that it is possible to bring faith into the workplace as long as it is done sensitively and begins with influencing gently those around us. But it has been trial and error because there is little teaching on how to introduce God into the workplace.

We spend a lot of time thinking about Missional Communities, how we might reach our parishes and communities for God.  But God is right where we are at and He uses us in that space to touch the people who are around us. For many that is our work colleagues and teams. I am not sure I fancy praying for my laptop or blackberry.  But I have learned that praying for the people I work with, for the situations I face and the decisions that I have to make, makes a difference.  I try to place God at the centre of all that I do and say; and remember that for me not to be glorifying Him at work is as sinful as any other sin.

I also think that all Christians are called to leadership, it should show itself first within our families and workplaces as we seek to lead them towards our God. So as disciples of Jesus we are leaders seeking to create and develop fellow followers.

I have attended a number of Christian conferences recently, at every one those in leadership in the church were prayed for, commisioned and blessed.  But at no point were those of us who are Christians in secular leadership even covered in prayer.  I am absolutely convinced it is a difficult and precarious world to be a Christian leader in the church.  But it is likewise a very difficult and precarious world for those of us who live to be Christs salt and light in our workplaces 1 Timothy  2 says ;' urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all peopl for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior" I have learned through my church and Christian events to pray for those in Christian ministry in the church.  I believe we need to be praying more intentionally for those whose who minister in the world of work too. Because only when we combine the sacred and the secular as God intended, will we see the reality of 2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.