Good will to all men apart from the bankers, and Rowans onslaught of the rioters, blaming social breakdown on people lack of respect for authority and selfishness, are BOTH in my humble opinion, inappropriate ways of dealing with a spiritually broken country. A country with blurred edges on Morals at all levels, Yes Trust is broken BUT WHY, because everyone has a kick em why they are down mentality..Exclusion and isolation merely leads to communication breakdown, where there is no dialogue there is no hope!!(no jokes now you naughty thinkers like i must have lots of hope then!! think about it!)

It makes me a little sad to see Rowan attacking people in this way..Trust is broken because  "no one listens at the point of need" and when problems do arise trying to sort them out in a conciensious way is always thwarted. It is the nature of abuse. Usually when victims complain the ruling authority or body moves or promotes the people who have caused harm the victims end up financially broke and broken emotionally and spiritually. Trust is something which is broken over a period of time, with the gradual isolating of those who suffer untill no one hears then the bankers usually profit at that time. Like i  have said previously one mistake one wrong digit one misinterpretation and the rot sets in. In most circumstances there are enough people to cushion the blow, but of course in isolation there is not, I do not agree that the riots was all about having no respect for authority , i do agree it is about having no trust..But Rowan needs to look closer to home, does he know who is employed in his immediate area does he really know all the chaplains, does he really believe that none have them have been responsible for the breakdown of people their spiritual welfare and consequently thier  finances?? I think if he were honest he would have to see that his own employees have played a part..

I wonder if an echo test was done on these comments??

Yes of course what happened in the riots was wrong, of course people camping illegally is wrong and people defacating in a church or damaging property is sad, to be so low as to have no value on anything.

Most fostercarers would tell you they come accross this disturbance all the time, it is not all about selfishness, but mostly about "lostness" its about having no identity or about having the normal values of life so warped, that confusion sets in and everything rather than being built on selfishness is built on confusion,it takes a lot of sorting out. ,With no community its about value being put on achievement rather than the ability to be kind. We have recently in our area had a child awarded for being "kind" she helped pack the homeless boxes and helped in many ways. There needs to be more recognition of personality characteristics, which of course can be added to by academic and social achievements, the ability to be kind is something else. It is difficult for people to be kind when they are distressed no matter what the distress, SO when the gangs have got a foothold, because no-one heard at the right time, not just the government but the church as well, dont kick them whilst they are down, YES have pre-emptive security and positive intervention, show a little kindness instead of judgement, it will not save them all, BUT when someone says has it helped at all, you may be able to say, well it may not have helped immediatly, but it is not any worse, which means there is greter potential for it getting better..

Some people say when they say things they know people wont particuarly like "well there goes my knighthood" but for some of us we say "there goes my life or any purpose for it"oh well

Peace be with you

Waterangel

Greetings to all! Waterangel, is this the statement by the ABC that concerns you?

User 4238

NO this is not the statement that concerns me, the one i read explicitly said that Rowan had said that the bankers and young people were selfish..That really did concern me..So it was the one which was headlined "Goodwill to all men except the Bankers" Jerome Taylor Independant Dec 26th

It concerned me on many fronts, it is not the words i have come to expect from Rowan, I am sure he would not have said it in isolation without context, but that it what was reported that he said. My issue is this that maybe Rowan underestimates how he may be "valued and respected and somewhat revered by young people" after all he is seen and read by young christians as being the most important person in the Church of England at this current time, I accept that he may not see it quite like that but young people do. I myself value the way in which he conducts his ministry which is why i said "i was disappointed" that he had reportedly said that. I have always viewed Rowan as approachable and as a diligent , intelligent thoughtful man who has the welfare of people at heart. However, because this is my impression of him, I wonder if he sometimes overlooks the damage that can be done to all sorts of people by the clergy. I do not state that he does! i just wonder, if the safety procedure on which clergy are where is tight enough. I understand that there are loopholes which are exploited between legality and immorality when it comes to some employment issues, and i know this leaves damaged people.

The bankers are a mixed bunch, in the same way as any other proffession, there are people who enter the caring proffession with the distinct intention from the beginning of climbing the career ladder, in this they sometimes overlook care, In the church there are some whose distinct  intention to climb to the top of the administrative ladder, they too forget what it cost to live and care, with more money going on buildings than on children and young people. I have been a christian now for about 38 years or so i have never known it be any different..

When i listen to leaders, i listen for the ability to be an all round empathiser with all kinds of situations, and an acknowledgement by them if they find something difficult to empathise with..I respect leaders who do not judge but that lead, indeed i have survived because, i followed the ones that lead and not the ones that judged..And just so they do not feel left out i am well aware that some of our Judges are good leaders too.

I closed this post down , made a cup of tea, and it came to my mind what about "lead me heavenly father lead me" In the absense of parents i would sing that hymn from a place so deep within you could never access it, but my faith in Jesus did. I soon came to realize that just as santa does not exsist and other people bought presents, and just as a surgeon would not tell you you need an operation, here is a knife do it yourself, Jesus would not expect me to do it all myself either, in fact he tells us "i will send you a helper" then i realized we just had to recognize it..

All people need someone, or sometimes something and other times both to Lead them the right way, if the heart is right the other things fall into placce eventually.. Selfishness is an empty person looking to be filled..

Waterangel

The article in the Indie does have the headline about "laying it in to the bankers", but at least the article lower down quotes the one part of the AB's sermon referencing them, which is:

“The most pressing question we now face, we might well say, is who and where we are as a society. Bonds have been broken, trust abused and lost. Whether it is an urban rioter mindlessly burning down a small shop that serves his community, or a speculator turning his back on the question of who bears the ultimate cost for his acquisitive adventures in the virtual reality of today’s financial world, the picture is of atoms spinning apart in the dark."

So, those mentioned here are 'urban rioters' and 'speculators', and what they do is described as much as a symptom as anything else. I suggest that he is proposing that these phemomenon are the result of the breakdown of the trust and bonds. There are other consequences, but these are in the news at the moment.

But bankers who do not speculate (I assume there are some), or young people who do not riot (of whom there are very many) are not being condemned in any way.

Thanks for that another David,

it was just i wanted to air a caution, you know the government demanding more from young people and those who support them and the church doing the same seemed a little harsh.

.Some people think young people do not care about the church or the government but at the age of 14 onwards a lot of them usually do..Over indulgance and too much unaccounted freedom can lead to problems, it is usually the middle young people who do it, those from very poor backgrounds do not have the money to buy alchohol and drugs,the middle class ones have money for "activities" and choose to blow caution to the wind if the parents are working, they do not have a clue where they are, they always think they are at a said friends and never believe they might not be telling the whole truth. That is when they get involved with groups and if there is nothing they want to do, rather than nothing for them to do. Stress on and from the parents has to be a factor,and also  the constant pressure to make young people independant before they are ready to be so, this often shows up the first divisions in peer groups..

The only way to reverse this damaging trend is to teach the value of community , listen at the point of need , not make people to afraid to speak out, and not make people to frightened to say they are struggling so it is too late for interventional support..

What is it about human beings that have to kick the boundaries and see non co-operation as a way of life, its seems an odd way to get power to me..Non co-operation is only useful if you put a better thing in its place..!!

Waterangel