The Parish Church that I lead has for about a year run Messy Church. For those unfamiliar with that visit www.messychurch.org.uk. We have a number of families who come along and join in who have had nothing to do with the institutional church. We welcome anyone asking no questions. We create things together. We worship together. We eat together.

All this is good. Very good. It could be described as a Fresh Expression or a new congregation.

When does something like this become recogisable as a Church? What are the hallmarks of Church? Just some questions. It would help me as I reflect to have a bit of a conversation

Hi Kevin

I've seen Messy Church work really well and be one of the fastest growing things in a church that I was part of in Cambridge.

The main question that I take from seeing that is the old one of 'what is Church?'.  So for instance, the leader (and those of us who helped her) saw it as 'Church', but I remember that a couple wanting to get their child baptised wanted the Sunday morning service for that.  This came from them, not the Church.  Why?  Did they just not recognise it as 'proper church'?  This was a village setting in middle class England, perhaps this would be different in a different context.

I've wanted to look creatively at how we do Church, and one of the things that is a constant question for me is the issue of Eucharist.  Do we build something Eucharistic, or perhaps quasi-Eucharistic in to anything hoping to be 'Church' from the beginning or is that impossible.  I like the idea theologically, but whether it just isn't feasible, I haven't come to a conclusion - and at the moment this is all theory for me.

Jody

This is a serious question. How does your Messy Church or Fresh Expression differ from a bottom-up Unitarian congregation where its church changes every time someone new joins it? The Unitarian congregation has an identity of association and a history, but its future changes every time someone new comes in. There is no imposition of doctrine on to that person, nor should be on to that congregation. When do you enforce the rules (e.g. eucharistic) and when do you break the rules?

Thanks, Jody.

It is interesting that within Messy Church the meal might be seen as eucharistic. I think that the meal that Paul talks about in his Corinthian correspondence might be indicative that the context of the eucharist was much larger than we envisage it today. Messy Church though asks no questions about belief to be included in the meal. One thing that is for certain, we live in a changing world; and as Christians we need to respond.

Hi Jody and Kevin-- Good to see you both on a peaceful thread...

How different is Messy Church from other things that go on in the parishes you know? I grew up with this sort of thing in several churches my parents attended in the southern US. Remembering the child I then was, I recall that the bigest impression was made by the relatively few service projects we did (e.g. preparing kits of supplies for earthquake victims). What mattered was that adults were doing it too; it was not just another <expose the children to something that children should be exposed to because they are children and children exist so that adults can expose them to things> sort of activity. Instead, it felt as though we were all together doing something actually important.

Eucharist... My quick response would be that inviting persons to live prayerfully and thankfully is a potent step in itself. Absent some feel for that, one can't make sense of the eucharist anyway. I can't at this point visualise the eucharist as an evangelistic tool. Which may be a further argument for Messy Church.

As you may know, communion for the unbaptised is before TEC's General Convention. The 2000 or so souls in the 22 parishes in eastern Oregon find it awkward not to be able to communicate those inquirers who attend church to figure them out. It might be better for there to be a hospitable setting for inquiry like Messy Church.

PS-- I've accepted Jody's invitation to comment on That Other Topic in her very lively-- messy?-- blog :-D

Hi Kevin and Jody,

I've seen Messy Church in a couple of contexts now - when I was at college and now in my curacy church. In fact we call it "Wild Wednesday" here (not sure why - maybe the vicar thinks using the word 'church' is bad marketing strategy  ;-)  )

My brief thoughts:
 
I'd agree with Jody about the importance of the Eucharist. For me it's a necessary (not necessarily sufficient) factor in creating church. For me at the moment I feel we're 'cultivating the fringe' at WW - and in fact in our suburban setting we're getting a fair amount of transfer to Sunday mornings, and cross-fertilisation with other parent/child activities,so we're not really asking how we can make WW more of a self-contained church. If we were thinking in those terms I think the natural thing would be to add more of a Eucharistic flavour to the meal element. I don't see why we couldn't do baptisms as well.

I think that discipleship is also vital - a key question for any Fresh Expression surely is to what extent brings people -children & parents - onward in discipleship. Interesting question - and can an event that only happens once a month fulfil that criteria? 

Really enjoying a book Pioneers 4 Life edited by David Male at the moment which looks at some of these themes - helpful reflections not just for official Pioneers, but any mission minded leaders I would say. 

Thanks for the youtube link. Very good. Praise God for what they are doing, though there are hundreds of churches not far off the same sort of thing for children and families. This doesnt look that dissimilar from fun the children have at the church I attend, and the fellowship the families and all others have.

 I think there is enough variety of styles within Christianity now for everyone.

Fulcrum is one expression of "the messy church" i realized that i have been contributing now for 3 years or so and that a lot of the communication is with the same people. The subject matter varies slightly but the Gospel and Jesus and fellowship of sorts is here.

We share similar views in some instances and opposites views in others, whilst i am writing i am often doing other task too at the same time. When i am writing i am seriously thinking, how do i really feel about this ? what would jesus say? what would jesus do? i feel sort of been there and done that, what now ? I was a little concerned in all honestly firstly at the title messy church, i thought i dont understand , is a church messy because people are different and because we live such vastly different lives, or is that a very neat way of describing a living working community church?.

Then i thought, fulcrum is a church, people might say but there is no real fellowship because it is based on virtual spirituality in a virtual world, but if we look at it like that, JESUS is our virttual world , we do not see him we do not hear him we feel the effects of him and we follow inspired guidance from him.

Working together to create peace in the mess rather than trying to tidy the mess to get peace.

sshhh dont tell my husband i am always complaining about tidying up mess..suits me messy church clean house!!

Angela

Thanks all.

Each time Messy Church happens in our context; it is different - there are different people. There are no pre-conditions about membership. Pluralist's question is interesting, because it not just about Messy Church. Our main morning service is a slightly catholic Eucharist. I give communion to all who come (no questions) and if a child puts their hands out, I never refuse; even if I offer a prayer of blessing alongside. The Parish, and therefore Church, has been largely white; recently this has changed; so our community changes; and has (if anything) a more evangelical feel because of the differences offered by those who are newer.

Discipleship is key. I would argue that it is impossible to disciple effectively simply on the basis of a 20 minute sermon/talk/discussion on a Sunday morning.

May the conversation and journeys continue.

Messy Church sounds if it could be a mission or a church plant depending on your ultimate intention. In order for it to be fully church it needs leadership, discipline, teaching, sacraments, worship and its own mission. it isn't fully church without communion.. There is no reason this cannot be incorporated into a meal. It sounds as if it has a potential for giving rise to a few adult baptisms.

Dave

So Messy Church cannot be too messy then, nor Fresh Expression too fresh... Well, I've been writing part of a sermon today towards taking a whole service on Sunday and that will be a fresh expression but hopefully not too messy.

Visions of the Sacred Community. "Congregational leaders who embark upon change efforts develop contrasting images of the qualities they seek in their congregation and of the characteristics they hope to shed, transcend, or avoid. They aspire to become what we call visionary congregations, those that most effectively develop, nurture, and apply powerful, widely shared, and widely understood visions of the sacred community. In contrast, they distinguish their communities from what we call functional congregations, those that may excel at performing discrete functions that satisfy their consumer-members but tend to fall short of genuinely achieving an integrated sense of sacred community." The rest is here.