How true David a church with the spirit bears fruit that last. Sometimes i feel like one of those wax fruits alright until you put me in the heat then i melt. But even this has a positive after being melted i can be reshaped lol. Oh and of course it lasts!!

Angela

Bowman,

What counts is whether a church or ministry is operating according to the Holy Spirit and the word. If God is using a church it will be fruit that lasts.

DavidW-- In the US, I have not seen churches anywhere in the spectrum of belief that are not materially involved in the community. And I do see serious efforts at "discipling" and "spirituality," though usually in different churches. Of course, I am thankful for that. However, there are segments of the population that badly need Christ, and seem not to have good options. Most efforts to reach them focus on the aesthetics of worship. But I what I actually hear is a need for guidance about life with "street cred," and for more serious personal discipline, both integrated a personal experience of God. And in fact, Islam and some commercial gymnasia are more often meeting those needs than churches with "hip" worship styles. I look forward to churches who can consistently identify pastoral virtue and zeal and can cultivate it with the theological depth that would enable ministries to make a spiritual difference in underserved communities.

PS-- The polarisations are mostly geographical, and something of a nuisance. As Stephen would predict, self-selecting churches in polarised communities have enormous "blind spots" that hamper their effectiveness.

Bowman,

Thank you for your response. You sense quite the opposite to me then. IMO I have not seen the Christian churches so active and engaging with the community for a couple of decades at least. Could it be that it is mostly happening in the one side of the polarised church you aren’t seeing?

Angela-- I often find myself wishing that there were a source for Christian journalism, as distinct from Christian comment on what others report. I do not feel poorly served by the media we have, but I do want to know how a Christian editorial board would prioritise its coverage, perceive the facts on the ground, and present information and ideas to readers with faith. How, for example, might Christian journalists evaluate the implicit priorities of "austerian" macroeconomic policies?

DavidW-- In my optimistic moods, I see this as a fallow period before a more productive one. I look forward to churches that are less polarised along purely political, economic, and social lines than in the US, and better prepared to teach and guide a discipleship that is deeper and more Christ-centred than conventional churchgoing.

Angela & DavidW-- Please continue your conversation!

Thankyou David for the point of reflection.

I tend to think that many people outside of the Church believe in a God. When the chips are down they want to hedge their bets , as we see sometimes with weddings and funerals of people who do not attend church but they want a church wedding or funeral. What I think people have much more difficulty with is accepting Jesus Christ as a Saviour. As you will know it is a simple spiritual procedure which is made extremeley complicated by human emotion.  I think many people have an individual faith, but they do not want to share it because they may be labelled as "a bit wet" it has been said that on here.

Of course we know it is much deeper than anything that a non believer can imagine, I sometimes think that the Church can stifle the growth of spirituality. I think this because, sometimes people get impeded by the worries of the people around them. For the leaders the worry is about keeping everything flowing and with people who work at different speeds that is no easy task. I just had a wonderful image of a congregation as i wrote this, if you think of a stream with rocks in it the water slows at the rocks before it finally joins the reat of the water to continue the rivers flow, its a bit like that.

This is one reason why i think in this country we need more media coverage, we have jeremy kyle on our tv everyday yet we do not have any spiritual solutions everyday on tv as to how to handle the power of emotions in spirit. There is no teaching out there unless you are already a christian and know where to go, what i am saying is it is not part of our daily diet, i am not and would not suggest it should be anything out of proportion with the other situations of life, but it should be there everyday. It is where it is put that would make the difference, at the end of news bulletins would be good, like most i often feel helpless at the end of the news when we see mans inhumanity to man at such times arrow prayers would be no bad thing. In order to be sensitive to other faiths i am sure there must be a way of wording one sentence that could be put at the end of bulletins.

Angela

WATERANGEL,

Thanks so much for your reply.

I agree with you, many people go about their daily business with good works. But that is not exclusive to Christians. As soon as one is aware of serving others one is aware that one is also being served by others. However in the great generalisation the world is surprised at something for free. We all have needs that are varied.

I am interested in your remark "Fortunately mission does not depend on Church but on Faith." Who apart from the Christian church as the body of believers has faith in God?

How do I feel?

Well in my area, one probably does not see the work of Jesus often but we experience the results. Many people go about their daily business, many doing one off kindnesses to others, the stranger and the neighbour. Today i may unwittingly do a kindness just because I am, tomorrow. i may receive a kindness just because I am. The question is does the way i feel today or tomorrow tell us anything about whether jesus is working in our area, probably not ,but if you believe that we all have a purpose , I am sure he is. Can we really judge? Do you think that the work of jesus is often felt in retrospect, is that what faith is? Jesus is with us in what we do whether that is to listen or to engage to participate or to contribute in some other way. "God is working his purpose out as year succeeds to year"

In our country i think it is much the same.

In our world "you in your small corner and i in mine" in every place in the world there will be people who have faith, some will have a misguided faith and others will have a simple faith without the complication of consumerism, together we can learn from each other.

In the Church difficult,!!

Fortunately mission does not depend on Church but on Faith.

Angela

Are we generally encouraged or discouraged by how God is moving in

our area,

our church,

our country,

the world.

I am very excited. As much as western society is degenerating, it is hardly surprising that opposition often rears its ugly head. God is working all over the world. We are seeing massive numbers turn to Christ in various parts of the world, even in strongholds. In our area the church and Christians are making more and more impact. We are seeing healings and hope restored in people's lives to a greater extent than the previous decade.

What is the experience of others here?