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Women Bishops?
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Posted by: Deleted user 974 |
Sunday 26 November 2006 - 07:05pm |
Sorry last words of last 'enty' here should have read '.. at least bishop of Rome..'
My thanks |
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Posted by: Deleted user 974 |
Sunday 26 November 2006 - 07:03pm |
There are many things in Scripture which i find positively unhelpful. Especially the genocides, rape, and other immoral acts described in some graphic detail, & even worse often attributed to G-d.
I also find a good deal dualism of good and bad, leading to anxiety, projection and splitting. Often leading to scape-goating of the Other, and paving the way for patriarchal practices, and wars, sexism, racism, anti-semiticism and homophbia. Cf Constantine,the Crusdaes, The 'spanish' Inquistion, Calvin and Luther, the behaviour of the Kings and armies of Christian Europe; the treatment of 'secular people' and of Turkey today by the Bishop of Rome; and European politicans in the anme of Christ -- or at last of the bishop of Rome....... |
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Posted by: Deleted user 974 |
Sunday 26 November 2006 - 07:00pm |
There are many things in Scripture which i find positively unhelpful. Especially the genocides, rape, and other immoral acts described in some graphic detail, & even worse often attributed to G-d.
I also find a good deal dualism of good and bad, leading to anxiety, projection and splitting. Often leading to scape-goating of the Other, and paving the way for patriarchal practices, and wars, sexism, racism, anti-semiticism and homophbia. Cf Constantine,the Crusdaes, The 'spanish' Inquistion, Calvin and Luther, the behaviour of the Kings and armies of Christian Europe; the treatment of 'secular people' and of Turkey today by the Bishop of Rome; and European politicans in the anme of Christ -- or at last of the bishop of Rome....... |
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Posted by: Karen Springer |
Sunday 26 November 2006 - 06:15pm |
Thanks Roger. Yes I think we are all pre-disposed to decide whether something is exceptional. I am also interested in the idea of "exceptional" times. Many people are arguing that the CofE is moving away from basic biblical truths, but I wonder if what is really happening is an 'exceptional' surge in our understanding?
Could it be, that we are in the throws of a new orthodoxy that draws on traditional understanding, but somehow acknowledges that the liberation of women into all aspects of ministry and that also admits to the possibility of actively listening to LGBT christians for the first time, is infact not driven by secular humanism & PC agendas, BUT an actual MOVE of God in our times? Has He got His figure on us? |
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Posted by: Roger Harper |
Saturday 25 November 2006 - 04:36pm |
Thanks Karen,
My answer, rather off-the-top-of-my-head, would be 'who decides what is exceptional and what is not?' Isn't EVERYTHING in Scripture useful...? And aren't the circumstances we find ourselves in today exceptional in terms of the circumstances of Bible times?
Roger |
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Posted by: Karen Springer |
Wednesday 22 November 2006 - 10:55am |
| Hello Roger, welcome back. I'm having a posting splurge today. I agree with what you written below, but what would you say to those who cite 'exceptional circumstances' arguments with regard to women like Deborah. |
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Posted by: Roger Harper |
Thursday 16 November 2006 - 06:00pm |
Apologies for a long delay in contributing. John, you raise an interesting point about a woman as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Where were the theological objections to that? If the issue for some is that women are not created to lead men, this would apply to the Queen as well as women bishops.
The strict division of the secular and spiritual that you propose is not a valid separation. A Bishop today has much of the strategic leadership of the people of God that a Judge would have had - not just the liturgical and intermediary role of the Priest. Indeed it is this strategic leadership role that causes some people problems.
In Deborah we have an example of a woman leading the people of God. It is only one instance and needs to be read in the context of the whole of Scripture. But we cannot dismiss it as not relevant to the particular 'women in leadership' issue that we have today. That is the way of cutting out bits of the Bible that we find uncomfortable&
Roger |
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Posted by: Dave |
Thursday 17 August 2006 - 10:18am |
| A full transcript of the Synod debate is now available http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/gensynod/agendas/ts1j06.rtf starting on page 14 but ++John Sentamu;s opening speech is also well worth reading and very funny |
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Posted by: Deleted user 974 |
Saturday 12 August 2006 - 09:22pm |
15 Women Who Took Up Roman Catholic Priestly Roles Face Excommunication
August 12th, 2006 posted by kendall at 3:16 pm
Fifteen Roman Catholic women in the United States, including some Californians, face excommunication after taking up priestly duties following their ordination in recent ceremonies designed to challenge the all-male priesthood.
On Thursday, Jane Via of San Diego, who was ordained in June and planned to say her second Mass on Sunday, met for two hours with the local bishop, who laid out the ramifications of her actions.
Three women in other states have received letters from diocese officials warning that they chose to excommunicate themselves when they participated in an illicit ordination near Pittsburgh on July 31. In San Jose, diocese officials warned that a woman priest there was not properly ordained.
Im scared of being shut out of the church and not even being allowed to be buried in a Catholic cemetery, said Via, 58, a San Diego County prosecutor. But Im breaking an unjust law and I will accept the consequences.
Along with Via are three other California women who are saying Mass. They like to call themselves valid but contralegem, against the law.
Dozens more women, generally in their 50s and 60s, are preparing to be ordained in the future, said Aisha Taylor, executive director of the Womens Ordination Conference, which became a nonprofit organization in Fairfax, Va., in June after advocating for female priests for 31 years.
All of the ceremonies were conducted on chartered boats theoretically beyond the jurisdiction of the local diocese amid the medieval pomp of the traditional rite.
Via was among two women ordained on Lake Constance, which borders Germany, Austria and Switzerland, in June. In the first service of its kind in the United States, eight women were ordained in the July 31 ceremony at the confluence of three rivers near Pittsburgh. A year ago, four women, including a Canadian, were ordained in the international waters of the St. Lawrence Seaway between Canada and the United States.
Presiding over some of the ordinations were three European women recently consecrated as bishops in secret ceremonies allegedly led by five bishops who remain in good standing with the church. The identities of the male bishops, who wish to remain anonymous to avoid excommunication, were notarized and then placed in a bank vault, the women priests said.
Read it all.
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Posted by: Deleted user 870 |
Saturday 12 August 2006 - 06:08pm |
| In answer to Roger Harper's post, "Because an Israelite Judge is not an Anglican Bishop." To put it another way, the line has to be drawn between Deborah's role in her context and Church practice in ours rather more carefully than simply saying, "Here's a woman leader, let's have women lead." If Deborah justifies anything, it would more naturally be the role of a female monarch as Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Barak would then be in the role of 'bishop'! |
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Posted by: Roger Harper |
Friday 11 August 2006 - 09:06pm |
If the Israelites followed Deborah as a Judge, why not follow a woman as Bishop?
Roger Harper |
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Posted by: Deleted user 974 |
Friday 11 August 2006 - 12:47pm |
I quite like the functional approach to episcope of some Free Churches, wherby some one is elected to office for say, 3 or 5 years or so, and then 'returns to the ranks' once more. (Probably with a sigh of relief, and deeper empathy for those who 'must' hold office. ).
As for Tom and Mary Mag etc--surely a background in 'confusion & misunderstanding' would be invaluable for anyone entering the C of E episcopate, as currently constituted ?! Or even for Canterbury or PB of TEC....
Maybe the BVM comes in here, too, as being above all this (the fray) and yet of powerful symbolic significance for us all, one way and another -- I love the Cenacle image of Acts. ('the discples continues in prayer, together with Mary the Mother of Jesus...'). The 15 th will soon be here to refresh us.
I also love the feast of St. Anne , Mary's mother --- I suggest the following versicle for the next prayer book / loose-leaf folder : ---
"St. Anne -- God's Gran "
"dear Annie - God's Grannie!".
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