The liturgy which used to be provided for this day was pretty unChristian in some of its sentiments, too, with its references to "Popish treachery" and, in the 1692 version (which incorporated a memorial of Dutch Billy's landing in Torbay, a prayer thanking God that "on this day didst miraculously preserve our Church and State from the secret contrivance and hellish malice of Popish conspirators, and ... didst begin to give us a mighty Deliverance from the open Tyrrany and Oppression of the same cruel and bloodthirsty Enemies".

On the whole it's better discreetly to allow it to fall into desuetude, I think.

i think that bonfire night in this country is generally understood to be linked to the gunpowder plot, hence.....

Remember, remember the Fifth of November,

The Gunpowder Treason and Plot,

I see no reason

Why the Gunpowder Treason

Should ever be forgot.

Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes, t'was his intent

To blow up the King and Parli'ment.

Three-score barrels of powder below

To prove old England's overthrow;

By God's providence he was catch'd

With a dark lantern and burning match.

Holloa boys, holloa boys, let the bells ring.

Holloa boys, holloa boys, God save the King! 

it also gets mixed up with hatred of Catholics, not a very pretty thing to behold, but I still know of some placed which still burn the Pope and not Guy Fawkes - eek!

i quite like the idea of not burning any effigies on the top of pyres - but maybe that's just me.......

I had always assumed that the 'guy' burned on the bonfire is the body of the sun going into the darkness of winter. In the northern myth, Baldur the sun god is killed by Hodur the blind god, who has been tricked by Loki god of fire and mischief into throwing a mistletoe arrow at him. All the other creatures had promised never to hurt Baldur -- but nodody thought to ask the insignificant mistletoe. Baldur's body is burned on his funeral pyre.

And don't you think that in many ways bonfire night is much more problematic in that it celebrates  torture and execution by what was basically a state sactioned  religiously inspired lynch mob! Much more unChristian than halloween! I mean none of us would want to celebrate burning catholics alive these days- would we (well, maybe at Oakhill?? JOKE).   The lady in the local Chinese restaurant asked my to explain why we were celebrating and I was very embarrased as I explained the story and I think - despite trying to make it clear - that she now thinks of it as a Christian festival. 

In addition it is important to remember that there have been times and places in human history when the day ended at sunset (and there was evening and there was morning - the first day etc, for example - so there is Biblical warrant for making the evening come before the morning).

It's good to see such an unhysterical conversation here. All Hallows is the old English name for All Saints, so the eve of the feast is All Hallows' Eve (Charles William wrote a novel with that title): hence Hallow e'en [even]. What is striking is that the 'celtic' festival of Samhain (end of harvest/start of winter) falls at the same time, and is said to be when the two worlds -- ours and the supernatural -- are close. The Church seems to take this over with All Souls included in the three day sequence. (THe same is true of St Bridget's day and Candelmas) Most of us will celebrate All Souls tomorrow, because All Saints was transferred to today.

I used to think trick or treating was an imported American custom until I recently came across a fascinating article on 'souling' an ancient English tradition dating back to the 10th century.  Originally, it was groups of people visiting houses in the days around All Souls Day and offering (for money or food) to make prayers for the dead.  Over the centuries, it changed until it became primarily identified with children.

"The Souling used to consist of parties of children, dressed up in fantastic costume, who went round to the farm houses and cottages, singing a song and begging for cakes (Soul Cakes), apples, money, or anything that the goodwives would give them."

It seems to have still been a common practice in the early years of the 20th century, especially in Cheshire, but is generally thought to have died out after the 1914 -1918 war.

like many Londoners - especially as my children do not attend the most local school -I don't actually know many neighbours or their children, but every halloween it is lovely to meet them and give each other sweets. we have never had any nastiness at all and parents alomst always accompany thier children. however I am aware that not everyone welcomes halloween callers - for a variety of totally valid reasons, so last year I decided that I would leaflet the local streets and invite those who welcomed callers to display a 'halloween callers welcome sign' which had on the other side 'no halloween callers please' which we would then all respect.  that way-every house we called at got us sweets and no one had their evening disturbed who didnt want it. (however I went away for half term and forgot all about this wonderful idea....but there is always next year)

one of my neighbours  I do know well and who is evangelical does the knocking on houses thing but gives people little cakes and stuff her kids have made (her kids do also get things back as well).

I am sure churches could make better use hallow'een and throughly baptise it.  I like Jody's use of pumpkins cut out with crosses - I did three pumpkins with 'make poverty history' on one year!!  We could use the theme of Christ the light conquering the darkness and rather than huddling together in church, go door knocking, offer cakes, glow sticks or candles, crosses with glitter on etc....and offer to perform a 'Christ is the light' type song (halloween singing as a prelude to carol singing!)  also leaflet before hand and invite local children to join us on our travels.  the evening ends back at church where all the scary monsters etc that the children have come dressed up are chased away by the 'saints' holding Christ's light. (or a great hide and seek game where the 'monsters' hide around the church in the darkenss and the 'saints' find them with torches and 'banish' them with Christ's light - followed by a great celebration when all the darkness has been banished and light is triumphant.

I must admit I have never understood what seems like the hysterical over reaction by some evangelicals to halloween - really it is just play acting and pretend.  however, at the  church of England school where I am head we are forbidden to do anthing about it so instead we do the mexican 'day of the dead' (basically All soul's) which has a real festive celebratory feel - all about giving thanks for people we've loved and who have died, which features lots and lots of skeletons doing 'normal' things like going shopping, dancing etc (google mexican day of dead images to see- with the underlying message that heaven is a happy place and our loved ones are happy in heaven.

We will have services for the bereaved tomorrow, but I am right in thinking that allsoulstide, which falls tomorrow is different fundamentally from the origins of Halloween?

Kevin

It's actually fairly easy to find alternative Halloween activities in the United States, and has been for two decades.  Many churches provide them.  My children (oldest is 18) have never gone door to door.  Instead we have always taken them to the "Reformation Celebration/Fall Festival/Halloween Party" at church.  They will typically run from 5:00 pm to 8:00 pm, and include candy, games, activities, and food.  It has become something of an outreach opportunity by churches to parents who are worried about the safety of tradtitional "Trick or Treating."

The safety issue is 100% why I kept my kids out of this tradition.  Halloween may have pagan roots but then so do Christmas trees.  Like the Wizard of Oz, the story has long since shed its context.  But in the late 80's hospitals were opening up X-Ray machines for parents to examine candy for needles and razors.  And who knows what could be injected into a Snickers bar with a hypodermic needle?  It was a risk I was simply unwilling to take.  The churches provided a safe alternative and I took advantage of it. 

carl