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Fulcrum Subjects: Sexuality / Anglicanism, Windsor Process
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Accepting Ethical Diversity?: A Critical Appraisal of the Bishop of Liverpool’s Presidential Address

by Andrew Goddard

Abstract Summary

The Presidential Address of the Bishop of Liverpool is a significant development in the evangelical and wider Anglican debates about sexuality. It draws attention to key questions and is driven by a passionate concern for unity and more Christ-like patterns of discussion. It is, however, seriously flawed in its response to these concerns, unconvincing in its arguments and offers a way forward that in reality threatens to create greater incoherence and division. 

This response sketches Bishop James Jones’ journey over the last decade before demonstrating the flaws in his central argument that Anglicans should “accept a diversity of ethical convictions about human sexuality”. Both in what it says and in what it fails to say the address apparently marks a significant step away from the traditional biblical, evangelical and catholic understanding of sexuality and the church’s teaching and discipline in this area. The heart of his case is an appeal to differences between Christians over just war and pacifism. This argument is shown to be inadequate in various ways but most basically because an appeal to diversity on one ethical issue cannot justify diversity on a quite different ethical issue.
Given its focus and central argument, it is particularly alarming that the address offers no engagement with Scripture or Christian tradition or Anglican teaching either in relation to sexuality or in its attempt to argue that ethical diversity in this area is legitimate. Although many of the practical implications of his argument for diversity remain rather vague it is clear that he is seeking to move the Church of England and the Communion away from its current position. In so doing he also makes a number of claims in passing that raise deeper theological questions about the nature of sin and grace and the relation of church and society.
In summary, the general position advocated is one which would move the Church of England away not only from its current teaching but also from its methodology of careful, rigorous engagement with the complexities of this subject rooted in Scripture, tradition and wider ecumenical reflections. What is being advocated instead is the sort of approach taken by the North American provinces which has moved from the seemingly uncritical (and theologically undefended) acceptance of a diversity of views on sexuality within a small part of Christ’s church to the inevitable abandonment of traditional teaching and discipline within the Anglican province and then to the marginalisation and exclusion of those who seek to uphold the biblical and traditional Christian sexual ethic. It is, sadly, for that reason, that the address is of such significance and concern and merits careful analysis, critique and engagement from the wider church, including others in episcopal leadership.

Introduction: The Journey of James Jones

The Bishop of Liverpool’s Presidential Address to his Diocesan Synod opens up a new phase in the Anglican, and particularly the evangelical Anglican, discussions about homosexuality. In it he calls for Anglicans to "accept a diversity of ethical convictions about human sexuality". This is the latest in a number of statements from Bishop James Jones that show a clear trajectory in his thinking. Just over a decade ago, there was little doubt about his commitment to traditional teaching. Indeed, when in the late 1990s, St Oswald’s and their prospective curate, Ed Moll, were unwilling for the Bishop of Newcastle to ordain Ed Moll as a deacon because of the bishop’s “unbiblical views on homosexuality”, it was Bishop James who was acceptable to this strongly Reform church. 
Back in 2000 (only a few years after the 1998 Lambeth I.10 resolution and in relation to debates about Section 28) he was in print stating a very traditional conservative (even if not distinctively biblical or theological) position. He argued that “Kant said we should test the ethics of an action by applying to it the maxim: act as if this were to be the law universal. If homosexual practice were to become such, the species would not be in a position to recreate itself. Furthermore, physiologically, the genitalia are manifestly designed for the opposite and not the same gender”. He also argued that “Although it is uncomfortable to hear it, the debate needs to acknowledge that in the act of gay sex, there are serious health issues. It is one of the major differences between practicing homosexuality and practicing heterosexuality. And the fact that one can lead to the procreation of children and the other cannot emphasizes the difference between the two”.
In 2003 he was one of nine diocesan bishops whose open letter questioned the appointment of Jeffrey John as Bishop of Reading. He also wrote an article on this in the Daily Telegraph in which, although it focussed on the timing of the appointment and raised some of the concerns about diversity and respect found in this weekend’s address, also complained that the problem was that the appointment “alters the Church's position on human sexuality and may force a damaging split in the Anglican Communion” and complained that Jeffrey John was “using his public role to undermine the position of the House of Bishops”.
An early sign of a shift in his position was his Presidential Address of 2005 which sought to propose “a shift in the way we discuss human intimacy....I want to move away from the polarised positions and ask for us to have the debate in a 4-sided forum”.  Then, in 2007, prior to Lambeth he contributed an article entitled ‘Making Space for Truth and Grace’. This developed some of the ideas from his 2005 address and also expressed deep regret for joining the episcopal opposition to the appointment of Jeffrey John as Bishop of Reading (‘I am sorry for the way I opposed it and I am sorry too for adding to the pain and distress of Dr. John and his partner’).

The significance and aim of the Presidential Address

Although Bishop James has for some time been developing his thinking and teaching, this latest contribution appears to make a significant and qualitatively different step further away from traditional biblical, evangelical and catholic understanding of sexuality and the church’s teaching and discipline. It is important to say that it “appears” to do this because, as with some of the earlier contributions, one of the difficulties is in pinning down exactly what Bishop James is arguing for in practice and on what basis. It is, therefore, best to work through the address, paying particular attention to those areas of controversy where he is advocating change, especially those highlighted in the shorter press release about the address which clearly signal where he hoped reports would focus their attention.
After setting his words in a wider social and ecclesial context he justifies his focus on the subject on the basis that “for some in the church homosexuality has become the defining issue of orthodoxy; it has become the benchmark on how you interpret Scripture and apply it authoritatively to the modern world” while for others it is “the touchstone of the church’s seriousness in wanting to include in the Kingdom all God’s children”. His concern is “whether we in the church can have a division of opinion without bitterness and a diversity of conviction without enmity”. Leaving aside how adequately the summary of positions captures the complex debate the goal here is clearly admirable and vital – bitterness and enmity are vices or works of the flesh which should have no place in the church and in lives marked by the fruit of the Spirit. The question is whether his proposed way forward has coherence and theological integrity and whether and how it counters these vices.

The central claim and the analogy of war

The central argument that follows can be summed up as “there are other important ethical issues where we accept a diversity of ethical convictions so we should now do this on human sexuality”. His case study for this position is “the taking of human life” which is where “the most basic and fundamental” questions centre. A nod is given to this question in relation to abortion, assisted suicide and euthanasia but the focus is then turned to the question of war. This is the first highly questionable move in the argument. The focus on war is not defended and clearly the question immediately arises as to whether and in what sense the church should accept “a diversity of ethical convictions” in relation to abortion, assisted suicide and euthanasia.  In many ways these would be better analogies for issues relating to marriage and homosexuality in that there is a much more consistent, uniform and negative moral stance in these areas than there is in relation to questions of just war and pacifism and yet, as with sexuality, there is a minority voice, particularly in Western churches, which is seeking to challenge that mainstream tradition. For example should there be a diversity of convictions expressed through blessing abortions and ‘mercy killings’? The worked example of war is therefore clearly selected as the easiest one to defend his desired conclusion but even here the argument leaves much to be desired and raises more questions than it answers.
The treatment of the debate, although self-confessedly “a cursory glance”, is weak. It is, for example, not at all clear there are “the famous five principles of a just war” (Aquinas who is cited lists three and the tradition has expressed its understanding in various forms with textbook summaries of principles derived from that tradition varying in the number of principles, though most have more than five). Furthermore, the central ethical debate is never really examined in the address: how, in the light of biblical texts such as Romans 13 and the Sermon on the Mount (not to mention the Old Testament where clearly the commandment was not understood to entail a total prohibition on taking life!), should the church bear witness to the limits placed on the use of coercion by secular authority in its pursuit of justice and its actions against injustice and oppression? Instead the debate is cast simply as “whether or not it is ever justified to take the life of another”. This is then described as “the most fundamental of all ethical issues”, clearly in an attempt to relativise differences on other ethical issues. There is also no acknowledgment that the 39 Articles take a clear (and the majority Christian) stance in Article 37 – “It is lawful for Christian men, at the commandment of the Magistrate, to wear weapons, and serve in the wars” - nor that the Lambeth Conference has, despite this, in the past approved more pacifist leaning resolutions, notably in 1930 and reaffirmed in subsequent conferences that “war as a method of settling international disputes is incompatible with the teaching and example of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

The analogy with war: strength but fatal flaws

Despite these limitations, clearly the central point of the argument stands that Christians and Anglicans have taken different views in relation to war without it necessarily being communion-breaking. (It must, however, be recognised that ‘diversity’ here is within a context where ‘just war’ has ‘won’ the official position and predominates; hence there are the historic peace churches such as the Mennonites for whom this has been an issue which has greater significance and that reality of church division cannot be forgotten or ignored). What is also not fully factored into the argument is that this is a process that has been wrestled with over many centuries (given the legal requirements in relation to adherence to the 39 articles, committed pacifists could not have been ordained for most of the Church of England’s history) and it relates to a question where the church has had to wrestle with divergent voices within Scripture in a way that is not found in relation to homosexuality.
Questions of war also concern how political authority (and hence citizens within political society) responds faithfully to the realities of a fallen and not yet fully redeemed world. In contrast, the major argument in relation to homosexuality  is in relation to anthropology with the claim (which, as discussed below, the bishop seems to share) that same-sex sexual desire and relationships are part of God’s good and diverse creation of humans made in his image. From this it often follows that same-sex relations are thus to be viewed as marriage (or as equivalent to marriage), a divine institution and ordering of relationships which has a special even sacramental significance within Scripture and Christian theology as a type of the relationship between God and Israel, Christ and the church.
The much more fundamental problem with the appeal to diversity in another area of ethics is that simply because Christians have accepted, to some degree, ethical diversity on one issue is not a sufficient argument for doing so on another issue. Leaving aside the wider area noted above of diversity in relation to other ethical controversies about taking human life or issues in relation to economics or truth-telling or global warming, there are clearly philosophies of war that presumably should not be tolerated as part of acceptable Christian diversity (eg those which called for indiscriminate slaughter and hatred of the enemy, although both in the CofE and in other parts of the church such views have been expressed by Christians). This is the fundamental weakness and flaw in the whole argument of the address. Just because the church has, in some areas, reached a considered conclusion that it can recognise a legitimate range of ethical stances compatible with Christian discipleship, does not give any guidance as to whether it should do so or in what form it should do so in relation to other areas, including sexuality. Each case needs to be treated in its own right.  What is signally lacking from this address however is any attempt to address the issues of sexuality in its own right from a biblical and theological perspective or to demonstrate why and in what ways ethical diversity on sexuality is legitimate.

What follows from the argument?: A major ambiguity

The discussion of differences over war also makes it unclear exactly what the bishop envisages in terms of the practices that follow from accepting a diversity of ethical convictions. Hence my opening caution that it “appears” this address makes a major shift. He talks about the fact that pacifist and just war Christians can ‘sit comfortably with each other, recognise each other’s integrity, respect one another’s faith and moral judgement and enjoy communion in Christ with one another’. He also notes that they can acknowledge moral qualities (such as courage) in each other’s stances. It is unclear how this is to translate into the proposed diversity over sexuality.
Like most people, I know and respect Christians who take a different view from me on same-sex relationships and believe they are seeking to be faithful to Christ. I do this even though I believe them to be in error and think their teaching has to be challenged and corrected. I do this even though I am convinced that their attempts to reform the church and change its teaching and practice must be resisted as a departure from Scripture and destructive of the church’s united witness to the truth. It appears the bishop is asking for more than such respect and recognition of others as brothers and sisters in Christ combined with resistance to their error and reaffirmation of biblical and church teaching. It appears he is asking for more than this but whether or not he is asking for more, and what more exactly he wants, remains unstated.

Sexuality and theology

Having set out his argument from analogy, there follows a paragraph which notes that the analogy between war and sexuality “is not an exact moral parallel”. However, Bishop James then explains this in a statement which misses most of the significant differences (some noted above) and instead makes the astonishing claim that “our sexuality like ethnicity is not a matter of choice. It is a given. In Christian terms a grace”. This reduces conceptions of sexuality to “either a choice or a given” in a simplistic manner that ignores all the evidence of much greater complexity. What is more it fails to recognise both the range of sexualities that might claim to be “a given” and the fact that many people’s sexuality, without being simply a matter of “choice”, is far from a “given” that is fixed and unchanging.
Much more seriously, leaving aside whether and in what sense sexuality is a given, his statement implies that anything which is “a given” is “a grace” (perhaps also implying sin is always and only simply a matter of choice?). This, unless it is much more carefully explained and nuanced, reflects a major departure from not just the evangelical but the Anglican and catholic understandings of the reality of sin. It is hard to understand how anyone praying the Prayer Book confession could say that the fact that experiencing some aspect of human experience as “a given” means that it is “a grace”. Although a brief aside, this short paragraph helpfully illuminates the fact that there are serious and deep theological questions underlying our differences on sexuality. That, of course, is another reason why we cannot simply accept a diversity of ethical convictions on sexuality in the hope that this might somehow lower the tensions within the church.

A vision of the future of Anglicanism

The paragraph that follows is, in effect, a claim to prophetic insight or inspiration based on the argument from analogy about war. This is a form of claiming to know the leading of the Spirit which has unhelpful echoes with other statements often made in relation to developing Christian understanding in relation to sexuality:
Just as the church over the last 2000 years has come to allow a variety of ethical conviction about the taking of life and the application of the sixth Commandment so I believe that in this period it is also moving towards allowing a variety of ethical conviction about people of the same gender loving each other fully. Just as Christian pacifists and Christian soldiers profoundly disagree with one another yet in their disagreement continue to drink from the same cup because they share in the one body so too I believe the day is coming when Christians who equally profoundly disagree about the consonancy of same gender love with the discipleship of Christ will in spite of their disagreement drink openly from the same cup of salvation.
Again there is much here that is vague and slippery – what does it mean to allow “a variety of ethical convictions” and what would it mean to prohibit them? Already Christians “who equally profoundly disagree about the consonancy of same gender love...drink openly from the same cup of salvation” – probably in almost every single parish church in the Church of England! More worrying than the unclarity is the implicit claim that the view being advocated about ethical diversity is for some reason (a special revelation of the will of God? An insight into the path of historical progress?) destined to win the day. A much wiser approach is that of Oliver O’Donovan in his Reading the St Andrew’s Day Statement who, noting that Christian tradition does develop, warns
a development of the tradition cannot take place just by announcing that it is going to. It is the result of a deepening understanding on the part of the whole church, the outcome of serious and prolonged engagement with theoretical questions, practical problems and successful and unsuccessful experiments. It is not simply a matter of Bishops or Synods deciding that they will change their line.
The present sign of this prophesied future is then held to be the Diocese of Liverpool and its links with both a TEC diocese (Virginia) and a Nigerian diocese (Akure). This is a link in which Bishop James describes his own diocese as one “moving toward embracing a range of ethical convictions on this issue”, clearly aligning it with the stance of Virginia, despite the fact that many evangelical Anglicans have felt they must leave that diocese to join ACNA.

Homophobia and the limits to diversity

The address continues with a commendable and important treatment of homophobia but even this is not without its problematic elements. Clearly “a diversity of ethical convictions about human sexuality” is here limited.  Certain proposed laws are classed as abhorrent and repugnant and certain patterns of (non-sexual) behaviour condemned. While sharing this stance – and the Don’t Throw Stones initiative in the Communion is an encouraging example of how, despite “a diversity of ethical convictions about human sexuality” common ground can be found – the address fails to address why and where the limits of diversity must be drawn. Can we, for example, while opposing the original Ugandan bill, nevertheless allow diversity over whether homosexual practice should be subject to criminal prosecution and imprisonment? What is lacking, once again, is any clear statement of principles by which to determine which differences are differences that matter and which are strictly adiaphora, matters indifferent.

Church and society: a further theological divide?

The nearest statement amounting to a rationale for the church accepting diversity in sexuality is another rather disturbing one – ‘If from a Christian point of view we can advocate this breadth of moral conviction for society at large I believe it is consistent theologically and ethically to allow the same diversity of moral conviction within the Church herself’. Leaving aside the lack of exact clarity about what is meant by ‘this breadth of moral conviction for society’ to then argue that “the same diversity of moral conviction” (italics added) should be allowed ‘within the Church herself’ is again to appear to deny some fundamental Christian theological convictions. What about the holy and distinct nature of the body of Christ? What of being in but not of the world? Of being salt and light?. The use of language of “diversity of moral conviction” which is so central to the address as a whole gives the impression that the Church is here being told by one of her bishops that she must not offer a less diverse, a more exclusive and a more narrow moral stance than the church has learned to accept exists in wider society. There are here disturbing echoes of the stance taken by the Bishops of the Church in Wales in relation to civil partnerships when they pronounced, "The Bishops of the Church in Wales cannot and would not wish to prevent what the law allows for Church members, both lay and clerical". I am sure that this is not what Bishop James intended to say or argue but I struggle to understand what else he is saying here.

Defending “traditionalists”

Having addressed the rights and dignities of gay and lesbian people and the need for their protection, Bishop James explains how he has also sought to defend “those who out of theological and moral conviction believe that the gift of full sexual expression is given only to those in marriage”. Here he offers a welcome tribute to those who experience homosexual attraction and yet embrace traditional teaching. Many of these Christians have been supported by the important work of True Freedom Trust and were the Church of England to take the path of diversity over sexuality which he proposes it is these faithful brothers and sisters above all who will feel abandoned, betrayed and undermined in their costly discipleship and forced to bear an even more “agonising cross”. If the church gave, as Bishop James calls it to, “sufficient attention to their situation or to their theological, ethical and spiritual insights”, then it would steadfastly reject the central proposal of his address and his vision of the Anglican future.

The Anglican Communion and the style of debate

The wider Anglican Communion context is then briefly discussed, though with no specific comment on the moratoria or the likely consecration of a partnered lesbian in Los Angeles in two months (it now being reported that she needs only one more consent from a diocesan standing committee to reach a majority, although the votes from bishops with jurisdiction are not known). This silence again makes it hard to judge exactly what is being advocated here: would such a consecration be acceptable within the “diversity of ethical convictions about human sexuality”? Is this part of “where I hope that the Church of England and the Anglican Communion might also move”? It is perhaps inevitable that the silence here (in contrast to the warnings of the Archbishop of Canterbury) will be interpreted as signalling that this is exactly the future pattern of ‘diversity’ he envisions and welcomes.
The warning against debating “through megaphones” and need for relationships is another welcome aspect of the address and the Anglican Communion’s Continuing Indaba Project holds out the prospect of doing this. Given this principle, however, it is unfortunate that having shared his thinking with his Bishop’s Council back in January, it would appear that the Bishop of Liverpool failed to share it with many of his fellow bishops in the House of Bishops.  He must surely have been aware its argument might benefit from their input and that its position certainly places many of them in a difficult position as they seek to know how best to respond to such a public attempt to undermine the current Anglican consensus by articulating “where I hope the Church of England and the Anglican Communion might also move”.

What is missing....

That apparent weakness in collegiality in this important area must be connected to two other major and related concerns about the address and its unclarity and hence potential dangers. Firstly, there is the dog that does not bark. At no point is there any clear affirmation of the Church of England’s official teaching and discipline (in the 1987 General Synod motion and 1991 Issues in Human Sexuality) or that of the Anglican Communion in Lambeth I.10. Nor is there any biblical reflection either on sexuality or on “how we handle disagreements about ethical principles within the Body of Christ”. Both of these omissions are disconcerting when the address contains repeated pleas “that the Church of England and the Anglican Communion must allow a variety of ethical views on the subject”. To make such pleas for reform within the church without reference to Scripture or official church teaching is not a pattern of reasoning normally associated with an evangelical or an Anglican approach to discernment and development of doctrine and discipline.
Secondly, the language is consistently of “ethical convictions” or “ethical views” but the problem we face in the church is much more to do with practice. The penultimate paragraph simply notes that “I have not addressed today the implications of this position for the ordering and governance of the church” although it is promised that this will happen “recognising that decisions belong ultimately to the General Synod and to the House of Bishops”. Nobody can seriously doubt that the Church of England is going to contain a diversity of views within it on sexuality and not even the most conservative traditionalist seriously believes it will be possible to eliminate that. The question is how that diversity is interpreted and what the discipline and public teaching of the church will be and how it will be upheld. The whole tenor of the address is that the issue of sexuality is relatively unimportant - the differences are minimized to a possible “sin” that “in a world of such little love two people sought to express a love that no other relationship could offer them” or a “sin” that “in a church that has forever wrestled with interpreting and applying Scripture they [conservatives] missed the principle in the application of the literal text”. As a result, the view appears to be that this diversity is to be welcomed and the discipline and public teaching of the church will have to adapt to this new reality. This is in order to “allow for the development of a more humane pastoral theology” (clearly implying that current pastoral theology is in some sense ‘inhumane’ and suggesting that “humane pastoral theology” is to be determined not by Scripture and the wisdom of tradition but by accepting diverse and incompatible ethical views – in a small part of Christ’s church at the start of the twenty-first century - and a view of “love” that may disregard “the literal text”).  It is hard to see how this fits with the teaching of Issues in Human Sexuality in relation to the Bible and sexuality which states(2.13) that “there are clear rules for conduct...there is also...is a conscious focusing, in Paul especially but not exclusively, on breach of the sexual rules as one of the sins most likely to endanger the security of salvation for Christians”.
These omissions and the central argument of the address mean that the whole pattern of reasoning is disturbingly like that of the North American churches – weak on biblical and theological reasoning, emphasising the reality of diversity of views found within the local or national church, and calling for seemingly uncritical acceptance of that diversity and hence abandonment of traditional teaching and discipline. A similar approach has been evident in statements from the bishops of the Church in Wales (2005) and the earlier 2003 statement of the Church of Ireland. It is exactly such a pattern that over the last few decades has destroyed the unity of the American and Canadian churches and ultimately led not to unity with proper diversity but the marginalisation and exclusion of those who seek to uphold the biblical and traditional Christian sexual ethic. It is exactly such an approach that now threatens the unity of the Communion. In contrast, the Church of England in its various engagements (perhaps best exemplified by Some Issues in Human Sexuality) has followed a much better pattern of serious and rigorous study, upholding Scripture and tradition while engaging thoroughly with substantive issues biblically, theologically, sociologically and experientially. James Jones’ proposals seem to wish to abandon that traditional CofE methodology and instead embrace the North American (and Welsh and Irish) approach.

Conclusion

It cannot be denied that many of the aims of the address are admirable and many of its warnings and its passion for unity in mission need to be heeded. The central issue with which it grapples is indeed where attention and energy needs to be directed among evangelicals and Anglicans as a whole: how do we conduct ourselves given our differences and how do we understand the nature of those differences? In daring to speak out on these matters the Bishop of Liverpool has done what few bishops have dared to do and it is to be hoped this may enable a more open and honest debate in the church, including among its episcopal leadership.
However, the lack of clarity about what he is seeking in terms of practice and the major weaknesses in both the main arguments and various passing comments means that his contribution is a very disappointing one which fails to convince and also raises major concerns. Certainly, much, much more will need to be said to convince those committed to Anglican teaching and discipline in sexual ethics – evangelicals (of all streams!) and others - that his approach has a biblical basis and theological integrity. As it stands, it looks too much like simply amounting to an abandonment of that teaching and discipline and a capitulation to the growing pressures from secular society and an “inclusive theology”.
While rhetorically embracing plurality, diversity, development, and unity through focus on mission the address does so without biblically based reflection and theological rigour in relation to the issues in dispute. It thus leads not to greater unity but to incoherence and division and, if more widely embraced, a church whose teaching and discipline departs from Scripture and from the wider church catholic. In short, if the proposal from the Bishop of Liverpool were followed it would threaten to set the Church of England down the destructive path which other provinces have taken as, in the words of Ephraim Radner’s perceptive article “Truthful Language and Orderly Separation”, ‘a dynamic has been set loose that can move in one of only two directions: either the extinguishing of the traditionalist party itself as a vital ecclesial existence, or the dissolution of a church that holds both parties together’.

 


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Forum Posts About This Article:


 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Tuesday 20 April 2010 - 08:47pm
Thanks again Blair. Sorry to have delayed so long that we are off Fulcrum’s front page. In preliminary, I believe the dialogue we are having, cringe-making perhaps to some, is within the spirit of attentive listening. Gene-by-gene mutual interrogation of sexualities might not be quite what Bishop Jones had in mind, but it is surely part of what he and Lambeth called for. I’m on time-consuming tenterhooks about the aerial dust cloud, but I’ll try to say a few things; I may have to curtail early. I fully agree that female contributions would be highly desirable, preferably, as with ourselves, giving voices from both sides of the orientation fence. I have little to say about female sexual desires; we need sisters to help us, as so often. You ask if my “Two unique persons who are truly self-giving and fully committed will form an equally (to their individual uniqueness) unique relationship” suggests that I see no problem with such a relationship between two same-sex adults. I certainly have no problem in believing that there are such relationships, if that’s what you meant; but I suspect it was not. What I said was that a relationship such as I described was unique, and therefore beyond empirical comparison. I do believe that such a relationship between two unique same-sex adults is a unique relationship. But coitus between any two individuals, whatever their sexuality, is not morally validated by associated qualities, admirable as they are. They could be present in a relationship of close blood relatives, or of a human being and an individual of another species. This illustrates for me a line of reasoning which is used to explain the existence of heterosexual attraction and union. Heterosexuality has various kinds of foundational rationales. 1. Creation (Gen. 1) where the human difference was bridged by the reproductive act of sexual intercourse. This is, of course, carried through to another form of union (Eph. 5:29-32), that between the divine-human/spiritual-physical of Christ and the Church or, by implication, the Divine-Human in Jesus Himself. Such symbolisms break down somewhere, but I take it that Rowan Williams meant this (perhaps more) in Open to Judgement by his question “How much am I prepared for this to signify?” This is perhaps the place to say that my earlier statement “I suggest that a male attraction by another male body is related to a desire to have a body like his“ was not intended to attribute special ‘cannibalistic’ motives to gays. It would be parallel to my saying ‘a male attraction by a female body is related to a desire to ‘have’ a body like hers’. The desires for union with a like or an unlike body are significantly different. There is, I think, a difference in the ‘desires to have’ that requires explaining. 2. Evolution selects for survival a desire for intercourse that will produce offspring. 3. A male desire for union with a female is related to the male trauma of separation from the mother. All of these, whether correct or not, explain why a male desires union (not cannibalistic or mystical absorption) with a female. However scientific-style inductive learning has, in western cultures, eclipsed these potentially deductive approaches. So for both sexualities we now ask, not whether they are explained by these criteria, but whether, in individual cases, they provide empirical evidence for approving them as patterns of occurrence. Thus, the questions ascend from: 1. What kind of body turns you on, with romantic as well as physical sensations? 3. Does this experience make you want to form a permanent, faithful and stable relationship with physical union? 2. What living arrangement would best ‘combine temptation and opportunity‘? (G B Shaw on the popularity of marriage) 4. Have there been enough people like you who have enjoyed long, happy partnerships, often with beneficial effects for the society around them, achieving great, even heroic sacrifice and devotion, for the relationship to of any couple like you to be given equal recognition with traditional marriage? Qu.4 is a question which, getting a positive answer, is believed by many to validate a sexual union which should have no effect on entitlement to hold office in today’s Church. But if this is the line of inquiry leading to such a conclusion, a further question arises as to why a gay relationship has to look so much like traditional marriage. Clergy relationships whose stability falters, and which lapse into unfaithfulness can, with repentance and pastoral help, resume ministry. Nor is impermanence a fatal obstacle to preferment. But characteristics affirmed in questions 1-4 can be found empirically in relationships between siblings, to stretch things no further. Never mind what English law currently says about these relationships. If the qualities actually found amongst human beings are as good as any between heterosexual unrelated couples, what permanent criteria have we for barring persons in such non-traditional relationships from becoming bishops? In other words, what are the fact-like foundations for gay relationships equivalent to the three I gave above for heterosexual relationships including physical union? Surely we need more than the inductions about actual gay relationships (they just happen) that are currently used to justify them.
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Saturday 10 April 2010 - 11:41am
Thanks for this Blair: an excellent contribution.  I'll reply as soon as I can. Best wishes  Richard
 Posted by: Blair  Friday 9 April 2010 - 07:23pm
Hi Richard (and all), point taken - I did promise a response! So am going to attempt one below. Apart from laziness one of the reasons for the delay is that I'm not sure I understand your post that well - so please correct me. Have read and reread it though so am hoping to be somewhere near the mark... You wrote, "Two unique persons who are truly loving, self-giving, and fully committed will form an equally unique relationship" - and read at face value this (to me anyway) suggests that you'd see no problem with such a relationship between 2 same-sex adults. Is this what you meant - I am asking partly because I'd made the assumption / formed the prejudice, from reading some of your posts on here and letters in Third Way magazine, that you probably wouldn't be in favour of such relationships... but is that grossly unfair? You went on to say that, "Identifying differences in sexual interests within and across gender groupings seems essential for promoting straight-gay understanding" - and I agree and hope I'm not coming from a place where "respectful listening" is one-way only. Perhaps it should be added at this point that this discussion will be (already is?) notably one-sided in a different sense, if no women contribute thoughts... Later you say that it's "been said that the physical features that men and women find attractive in each other relate to their suitability for conceiving, bearing and protecting future offspring". I'm taking it that there's truth in this, although I doubt that that's all there is to it - though being gay maybe I'm on shaky ground in saying so (!). Some men find larger breasts attractive for instance, though size makes no 'functional' difference to a breast in terms of raising children...; some women seem to like a shapely bum on a man but again, what would that have to do conceiving or raising offspring...? (You may now uncurl your toes ). You added that it could be that "male emotions are structured to respond to female attractions by a desire for connection with a female body which was severed in infancy" - maybe, but this wouldn't work as an account of female desire for the male, though again am I being uncharitable? Do you see your words as trying to sum up what opposite-sex desire is about, or as what (most) men's desire for women is about? Also, what about the 'unitive' aspects of sex, as distinct from the 'procreative', as these are also "closely related to physical coupling"? I'm not sure where else to take this because I'm not sure how to answer some of your direct questions - eg, "Does homosexual attraction match this mutual differentness?" and "How does this experience of attraction by difference work out in growing up gay?". Perhaps the first of those is rhetorical as I guess there's an obvious sense in which the answer is 'no'. I don't know how to answer the second - again I suppose someone could just say, 'it doesn't' and leave things there. Or maybe, if I can say this, we need to shift the terms a bit so that we're not only trying to describe same-sex desire in terms of opposite-sex desire, or desire only in terms of sameness and difference. But perhaps that's too convenient and then I wouldn't be engaging with what you're saying... "Pornography, of course, emphasises attractive physical features without the hazards of relationship and responsibility" - yes indeed, and porn addicts like me need to take that to heart... but that's an aside. Must confess I never expected to see Tom of Finland discussed on Fulcrum. I'll leave it to anyone who's curious, to do a Google Image search... You ask me to correct your guesses and I'll try, but with the caveat that I may be no nearer the mark than you or anybody else. I suspect there's some truth in each of the three guesses you make, perhaps especially 2 and 3. But as I did before I still want to ask you if you think that same-sex desire is "always, inevitably, acquisitive - 'cannibalistic', dare I use the word, in the sense of wanting to 'take in' the partner's qualities"? Guess 1 in your post seems to have this behind it. A key question seems to me to be, can same-sex desire be ordered, transformed (to use your word from your first paragraph) into something capable of mutual self-giving? I assume we'd all take it that heterosexual desire can be. You are of course right to say that, "There are differences between Tom and his idealised creations, but they are differences within a shared maleness", and that "The straight equivalent is union of difference, which is - different" - but what does the fact that this is "different" mean? For instance, do you think that the lack of gender difference in a same-sex couple, makes same-sex desire intrinsically narcissistic? (Not being in a relationship myself I can't attempt to answer my own question from experience - but would note the observations from, for example, 1991's Issues in human sexuality where it was said that there are same-sex couples "whose partnerships are a blessing to the world around them, and who achieve great, even heroic sacrifice and devotion", which are far from narcissism). Will leave it there and see how all that strikes you! in friendship, Blair
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Thursday 8 April 2010 - 06:12am
Is anybody there?
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Tuesday 30 March 2010 - 12:28pm
Thanks Blair. I've realised my problems began with updating to Firefox 3.6. Neither it nor Google Chrome has text buttons for Fulcrum. I've resent in Explorer. Look forward to your post. Richard W
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Monday 29 March 2010 - 09:38pm
Thanks Blair. Let me start again. I repeat my basic starting point, that our union with God 'in Christ' ( 2 Cor. 5:17) relativises and transforms all our other desires and relationships. My words on 'desire for sameness' suffered from over-compression. Two unique persons who are truly loving, self-giving, and fully committed will form an equally unique relationship. Relationships like that are beyond empirical comparison. But we generally find that such a couple were expecting to find beauty and love either amongst the opposite sex or among their own. This, it seems to me, allows for at least informed surmises between those turned on amongst their own gender group and those similarly stimulated in 'the Other' group. The gender relationship, extra- or intra-, is closely related to physical coupling, in a way to which shared class origin, cultural tastes and tea drinking have less relevance. Identifying differences in sexual interests within and across gender groupings seems essential for promoting straight-gay understanding. Unless, that is, respectful listening is only about straights learning that it's good to be gay, because gays know all about heterosexuality. The maturing of a heterosexual marriage is a lifelong coming to terms with built-in differences of aspiration. There may be individual exceptions to this, but even in a case where a couple decide not to have children, the process and cost of reaching that decision is, I suggest, seldom the same for male and female. If our attitudes to child-bearing and nurture have evolved in aid of species survival, the differing interests of the potential mother and father are likely to be stubborn. Emergence of these differences, early or late in a relationship and however disguised, often surprises both partners. There is, of course, more to sex than species survival - and less. I assume, Blair, that you'd agree that men and women have different sexual attractions, and that straights and gays respond differently to visible stimuli. Its been said that the physical features that men and women find attractive in each other relate to their suitability for conceiving, bearing and protecting future offspring. I think that in males these considerations are so far sub-conscious as to have no connection with their initial felt desires. But this explanation does focus on the different physical contributions made by a man and a woman? Does homosexual attraction match this mutual differentness? More likely, I think, male emotions are structured to respond to female attractions by a desire for connection with a female body which was severed in infancy. Hence the boy's obsession with those female body parts which were denied him at birth and weaning. This longing for the restored union with a female body is especially strong at a time of acute vulnerability, adolescence, when it coincides with a passion for independence from parents. His hopes transfer from his mother to a female contemporary. 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother...'  As with the 'future childbearing' explanation above, the male seeks self-assurance in a person who is of the same sex as his mother. How does this experience of attraction by difference work out in growing up gay? (I'm ignoring as now atypical the gay old butch-femme cliche,  where a man with enough maleness for two was drawn to a man who is like a woman but isn't one.) Pornography, of course, emphasises attractive physical features without the hazards of relationship and responsibility. Heterosexuals know what signals are being sent. What are the equivalent homosexual messages? The pornographic art of Tom of Finland features hyper-masculine physiques which Tom, from his photographs, didn't possess. What is this about, apart from money?  Please correct my guesses below. 1. Tom revels in male bodies of the kind he wishes he had. 2. He enjoys by voyeurism the embraces of lovers he wished he could attract by being endowed like them. 3. He assuages his fear of homophobia by creating powerful truckers and sailors whose sexuality is like his, yet who could destroy men who hate him for being gay. There are differences between Tom and his idealised creations, but they are differences within a shared maleness. In terms of sexuality, he shares it with any partner he has or hopes to have. The straight equivalent is union of difference, which is - different. As I said.    
 Posted by: Blair  Friday 26 March 2010 - 06:12pm
Hello Richard, will attempt a longer reply to your post later, but just quickly re type sizes: what internet browser are you using? In internet explorer you'll have buttons to format your post and tweak the font and size; in other browsers (eg Google Chrome) these might not appear. I don't know how to make them appear in Chrome and other browsers but as someone (sorry, can't remember who!) posted recently, you can use html tags to format your post. For example to italicise something type "<i> " (without inverted commas) and then type "</i>" to return to normal font. Blair  
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Wednesday 24 March 2010 - 04:42pm
Apologies to everyone for my small typeface and dense print. If anyone can tell me how to get it legible I'll be grateful. Richard W
 Posted by: DavidW  Wednesday 24 March 2010 - 08:24am
To Richard Wilkins, You see many people have claimed to be acting in love but Jesus said to love is to obey His teaching and if they are doing opposite, what they think is love, is in fact not love to God. A stark example would be that the Nazis did what they did for the love of the Fatherland.   Two unique persons who are truly loving, self-giving, and fully committed will form an equally unique relationship, and its called a friendship, as soon as one restricts this by sex/gender then it is a sexual relationship, and if a same sex relationship it isnt loving God or one another becasue people are trusting their feelings and not God's truth in His word and what is evident from what He has created. In short its an example of turning away from God that Levitucus 18 & 20 and Romans 1 refer to.  
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Tuesday 23 March 2010 - 10:54pm
Thanks Blair. Let me start again. I repeat my basic starting point, that our union with God in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17) relativises and transforms all our other desires and relationships. My words on desire for sameness suffered from over-compression. Two unique persons who are truly loving, self-giving, and fully committed will form an equally unique relationship. Relationships like that are beyond empirical comparison. But we generally find that such a couple were expecting to find beauty and love either amongst the opposite sex or amongst their own. This, it seems to me allows for at least informed surmises between those turned on amongst their own gender group and those similarly stimulated in the Other group. The gender relationship, extra- or intra-, is closely related to physical coupling, in a way to which shared class origin, cultural tastes and tea drinking have less claim. Identifying differences in sexual interests within and across gender groupings seems essential for promoting straight-gay understanding. Unless, that is, respectful listening is only about straights learning that its good to be gay, because gays know all about heterosexuality. The maturing of a heterosexual marriage is a lifelong coming to terms with built-in differences of aspiration. There may be individual exceptions to this, but even in a case where a couple decide not to have children, the process and cost of reaching that decision is, I suggest, seldom the same for male and female. If our attitudes to child-bearing and nurture have evolved in aid of species survival, the differing interests of the potential mother and father are likely to be stubborn. Emergence of these differences, early or late in a relationship and however disguised, often surprises both partners. There is, of course, more to sex than species survival - and less. I assume, Blair, that youd agree that men and women have different sexual attractions, and that straights and gays respond differently to visible stimuli. Its been said that the physical features that men and women find attractive in each other relate to their suitability for conceiving, bearing and protecting future offspring. I think that in males these considerations are so far sub-conscious as to have no connection with their initial felt desires. But this explanation does focus on the different physical contributions made by a man and a woman? Does homosexual attraction match this mutual differentness? More likely, I think, male emotions are structured to respond to female attractions by a desire for connection with a female body which was severed in infancy. Hence the boys obsession with those female body parts which were denied him at birth and weaning. This longing for the restored union with a female body is especially strong at a time of acute vulnerability, adolescence, when it coincides with a passion for independence from parents. His hopes transfer from his mother to a female contemporary. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother & As with the future childbearing explanation above, the male seeks self-assurance in a person who is of the same sex as his mother. How does this experience of attraction by difference work out in growing up gay? (Im ignoring as now atypical the gay old butch-femme clich│ , where a man with enough maleness for two was drawn to a man who is like a woman but isnt.) Pornography, of course, emphasises attractive physical features without the hazards of relationship and responsibility. Heterosexuals know what signals are being sent. What are the equivalent homosexual messages? The pornographic art of Tom of Finland features hyper-masculine physiques which Tom, from his photographs, didnt possess. What is this about, apart from money? Please correct my guesses. 1. Tom revels in male bodies of the kind he wishes he had. 2. He enjoys by voyeurism the embraces of lovers he wished he could attract by being endowed like them. 3. He assuages his fear of homophobia by creating powerful truckers and sailors whose sexuality is like his, yet who could destroy men who hate him for being gay. There are differences between Tom and his idealised creations, but they are differences within a shared maleness. In terms of sexuality, he shares it with any partner he has or hopes to have. The straight equivalent is union of difference. As I said.
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Monday 22 March 2010 - 06:40pm
Thanks Blair. Let me start again. I repeat my basic starting point, that our union with God in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17) relativises and transforms all our other desires and relationships. My words on desire for sameness suffered from over-compression. Two unique persons who are truly loving, self-giving, and fully committed will form an equally unique relationship. Relationships like that are beyond empirical comparison. But we generally find that such a couple were expecting to find beauty and love either amongst the opposite sex or amongst their own. This, it seems to me allows for at least informed surmises between those turned on amongst their own gender group and those similarly stimulated in the Other group. The gender relationship, extra- or intra-, is closely related to physical coupling, in a way to which shared class origin, cultural tastes and tea drinking have less claim. Identifying differences in sexual interests within and across gender groupings seems essential for promoting straight-gay understanding. Unless, that is, respectful listening is only about straights learning that its good to be gay, because gays know all about heterosexuality. The maturing of a heterosexual marriage is a lifelong coming to terms with built-in differences of aspiration. There may be individual exceptions to this, but even in a case where a couple decide not to have children, the process and cost of reaching that decision is, I suggest, seldom the same for male and female. If our attitudes to child-bearing and nurture have evolved in aid of species survival, the differing interests of the potential mother and father are likely to be stubborn. Emergence of these differences, early or late in a relationship and however disguised, often surprises both partners. There is, of course, more to sex than species survival - and less. I assume, Blair, that youd agree that men and women have different sexual attractions, and that straights and gays respond differently to visible stimuli. Its been said that the physical features that men and women find attractive in each other relate to their suitability for conceiving, bearing and protecting future offspring. I think that in males these considerations are so far sub-conscious as to have no connection with their initial felt desires. But this explanation does focus on the different physical contributions made by a man and a woman? Does homosexual attraction match this mutual differentness? More likely, I think, male emotions are structured to respond to female attractions by a desire for connection with a female body which was severed in infancy. Hence the boys obsession with those female body parts which were denied him at birth and weaning. This longing for the restored union with a female body is especially strong at a time of acute vulnerability, adolescence, when it coincides with a passion for independence from parents. His hopes transfer from his mother to a female contemporary. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother & As with the future childbearing explanation above, the male seeks self-assurance in a person who is of the same sex as his mother. How does this experience of attraction by difference work out in growing up gay? (Im ignoring as now atypical the gay old butch-femme clich│, where a man with enough maleness for two was drawn to a man who is like a woman but isnt.) Pornography, of course, emphasises attractive physical features without the hazards of relationship and responsibility. Heterosexuals know what signals are being sent. What are the equivalent homosexual messages? The pornographic art of Tom of Finland features hyper-masculine physiques which Tom, from his photographs, didnt possess. What is this about, apart from money? Please correct my guesses. 1. Tom revels in male bodies of the kind he wishes he had. 2. He enjoys by voyeurism the embraces of lovers he wished he could attract by being endowed like them. 3. He assuages his fear of homophobia by creating powerful truckers and sailors whose sexuality is like his, yet who could destroy the men who hate him for being gay. There are differences between Tom and his idealised creations, but they are differences within a shared maleness. In terms of sexuality, he shares it with any partner he has or hopes to have. The straight equivalent is union of difference. As I said.
 Posted by: Deleted user 974  Sunday 21 March 2010 - 05:42pm
CG Jung would say that relationships between men and women may be basically 'homosexual', when the man relates largely to the woman's animus (unconscious masculine aspect) and the woman to the man's anima (unconcious feminine side). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...... Similarly, 2 men may be relating heterosecually when one man is relating to the anima or inner woman in his partner --and so on. And same for 2 women but the other way round. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (I have added lines in anya ttempt to maintain some semblance of spacing as I am offended aesthetically when all spacing gone --all differnetitation if you --so relevant to this discussion ! Also without spacing it har to read. There are many contributions I can only decipher with the aid of a magnifying glass --if at all).-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would well worth reading som eof the books on Jungian psychology published by 'InnerCity Press' (of Canada)--if not the sage himself.
 Posted by: Simon Lea  Sunday 21 March 2010 - 02:59am
>> There is no argument here. Te gospels of Matthew and Mark along with Ephesians records Jesus affirming God created man and woman for the purpose of being united.
 Posted by: Blair  Thursday 18 March 2010 - 12:04am
Hello all, to Richard W: wanted to respond to your post about sameness and difference. You say, "I suggest that a male attraction by another male body is related to a desire to have a body like his. I think I can safely assure you that male attraction by a female body is never that". Could I ask what prompts that suggestion about male same-sex attraction? Also (and this is influenced somewhat by Gareth Moore OP), is it in fact accurate or illuminating to say that homosexual desire is desire for sameness, and heterosexual desire a desire for difference? From some angles that may seem a silly question - but if people were asked about why they desire the partners they desire, I doubt that many people's answers would be couched in terms of sameness or difference. If you are married, is the reason that you desire your wife, simply because she is different to you? (Obviously I have no clue whether this is true of you - but it is notable that there are often lots of 'samenesses' in opposite-sex couples, e.g. that the partners are of a similar class or the same race or level of education. I'm wondering if this is enough to suggest that heterosexual desire is not simply about difference). Turning back to same-sex desire: are you implying that same-sex desire is always, inevitably, acquisitive - 'cannibalistic', dare I use the word, in the sense of wanting to 'take in' the partner's qualities? If this is what you're implying, how would you back this up with empirical observations? I admit I don't have a good answer to your final question. But the three 'unions of difference' you cite are each of a different character and I'm not sure whether they all cohere in such a way that they form an argument against same-sex sexual relationships. Moreover, if the Bible is so concerned to prohibit same-sex desire, why don't prohibitions of sex between women crop up whenever sex between men is alluded to? in friendship, Blair
 Posted by: Deleted user 974  Wednesday 17 March 2010 - 02:46pm
OK Richard Wilkins thanks for your nice 'challenge'. One physical aspect of gay relationships and indeed lesbian gay communities is that we make -er- a lot of tea ! And then delight in taking tea together. Lots of chat and sharing ;or sometimes in more contemplative mode, pondering the steam bubbles and flavours. Makes Diversity cente stage -- bags, loose, in pot or in mug and so on ...... Also the hearth. I think tea, hearth & home could be a very lovely way into physical and relational aspects of 'gay life'. ....
 Posted by: nersenpaul  Wednesday 17 March 2010 - 07:44am
  Perhaps "True Union in the Body" by Goddard and Walker would be helpful here: http://www.grovebooks.co.uk/cart.php?target=product&product_id=17039&category_id=389
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Tuesday 16 March 2010 - 06:00pm
Fern, I am sorry to have troubled you., and am surprised that I did. Firstly, I asked none of the questions that you attributed to me. Secondly, if I could help by removing the word 'physical' from my last sentence I gladly would, although I am not sure why I have to be so ruthlessly manichaeist in my language. The Bible, and all incarnational Christian discourse, takes physical bodies seriously and respectfully; I thought I was doing the same. I raised the subject of sameness in sexual relationships because it seems to me that 'respectful listening' requires this difference between hetero- and homo- sexual attraction to be addressed. I have been puzzled when I, who prefer to sleep with a woman, am accused by a man who prefers to sleep with a man, of 'being afraid of people who are different'. This is why your last sentence is so interesting. "Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that sex is relational for gays just as it is for straights?" In the instance above, I'm diagnosed, paradoxically, as being fearful of differentness. When I inquire further about differentness, you demand to know why I can't accept gay and straight sex as identical. No progress in understanding is possible if the conversation is closed down whichever way it goes. I suggest that a male attraction by another male body is related to a desire to have a body like his. I think I can safely assure you that male attraction by a female body is never that. So you beg the question when you seem to say that because gay and straight sex are equally relational (which I don't doubt), there are, therefore, no further questions to be asked about the differences between them. Union of difference, divine-human, male-female, Jew-Gentile, is a dynamic running through the Bible. The union is not one of process or continuum; it is union by events. God did not drift gradually into Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:14), male and female did not shade into each other (Genesis 2:24), and Jews and Gentiles did not assimilate into one New Humanity (Ephesians 2:14-16). These unions of differences mirror in different ways the eternal reconciliation of our sinful flesh with the holy God through the obedient sacrifice of Jesus, the incarnate God (Romans 8:3-4). We are often told that for gay people, their homosexuality is absolutely central to who they are as persons. So it is central to their intimate relationships. How then does the union of two homosexuals relate to this Biblical preference for united difference?
 Posted by: DavidW  Tuesday 16 March 2010 - 01:53pm
There is no argument here. Te gospels of Matthew and Mark along with Ephesians records Jesus affirming God created man and woman for the purpose of being united. The only alternative given is celibacy which is the absence of union. 1 Corinthians 7 also gives just the two alternatives faithful man/woman union or celibacy as opposed to sexual immorality. The idea therefore that people didn’t know or understand the concept of sexual orientation implies God didn’t know what He was creating. The condemnations of homosexual practice aren’t even needed to know that God has created man and woman to be in union. The modern concept of human sexuality is directly putting human feelings and reasoning against God’s purposes at a fundamental level. It is as Romans 1 says turning away from God in futile thinking.   Scripture does not support any possible logical assumption of same sex relationships being justified, it tells us the opposite. The problem is that some people are looking at interpreting the scripture through a concept the scripture tells us is error.    
 Posted by: Dave  Tuesday 16 March 2010 - 11:47am
Mark writes, "the fruit of distorted worship includes distorted homosexuality". Paul's argument is simply that "the fruit of distorted worship includes distorted sexuality". The natural reading of Romans 1 is that homosexuality is distorted sexuality. Simon has concentrated on the Jewish background to Romans and suggests that good homosexuality was unknown to the Jews on the basis that orientation is a recent construct. Such long term loving relationships between members of the same sex were known in Roman society. I am not aware of the Jewish leaders saying well that's all right then. It is perhaps for this reason that Paul starts with the women. Romans was addressed to a church with both Jewish and Gentile factions and Paul was well aware of how both thought. He is not picking on homosexuals but arguing that all have sinned. Simon's argument shows that he cannot be condemning people who are acting contrary to their orientation. He condemns people who use a holy gift from God against his design and purpose i.e against their true nature. David
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Monday 15 March 2010 - 08:48pm
Dear L Roberts OK then, what I said might be heavy. So find some other way to meet Mark Bennett's point: "But bringing that assumption to the discussion does not help at all if the matter in question is whether the Bible in fact says what you believe it to say. To explore that question means exploring the phenomena of homosexual relationships and the nuances of the text in what Lambeth 1.10 refers to as a "listening process" - without that exploration we don't even know what the words mean, or whether we mean the same when we use them." I agree with this. But when I suggested a way into it, and inadvertently used the word 'physical', Fern said I was obsessed with what gays did in bed. If you want to explore only non-physical homosexual relationships go ahead. But let it be remembered that I didn't introduce hang-ups about bodies. That came from a different church tradition.
 Posted by: Deleted user 974  Monday 15 March 2010 - 05:33pm
'What spiritual, moral and theological implications are there in the gay preference for sameness in physical sexual partnerships?' (Richard W) If I was looking for a PhD thesis subject this might be great. As it is I think I'll pass on it ....
 Posted by: Mark Bennet  Monday 15 March 2010 - 04:56pm
With the greatest of respect, DavidW, (i) the passage you cite does not say 'all homosexuality is wrong' and you are making the assumption that this is what it means; (ii) the NIV is good to quote, but the earliest text we have is in Greek, and the nuance of the translation is both contested and important; (iii) it would help your argument if you were able to read and understand what I wrote, and answer the points I was actually making; (iv) as I have noted before, I don't know what your purpose is in arguing as you do - it will appeal to people who already agree with you, sure, but it doesn't look to me as though it will persuade anyone who doesn't.
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Monday 15 March 2010 - 04:35pm
Fern, I am sorry to have troubled you. Firstly, I asked none of the questions that you attributed to me. Secondly, if I could help by removing the word 'physical' from my last sentence I gladly would, although I am not sure why I have to be so ruthlessly manichaeist in my language. The Bible, and all incarnational Christian discourse, takes physical bodies seriously and respectfully; I thought I was doing the same. I raised the subject of sameness in sexual relationships because it seems to me that 'respectful listening' requires this difference between hetero- and homo- sexual attraction to be addressed. I have been puzzled when I, who prefer to sleep with a woman, am accused of 'being afraid of people who are different' by a man who prefers to sleep with a man. This is why your last sentence is so interesting. "Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that sex is relational for gays just as it is for straights?" In the instance above, I'm diagnosed, paradoxically, as being fearful of differentness. When I inquire further about differentness, you demand to know why I can't accept gay and straight sex as identical. No progress in understanding is possible if gays close down the conversation whichever way it goes. I suggest that a male attraction by another male body is related to a desire to have a body like his. I think I can safely assure you that male attraction by a female body is never that. So you beg the question when you seem to say that because gay and straight sex are equally relational (which I don't doubt), there are, therefore, no further questions to be asked about the differences between them. Union of difference, divine-human, male-female, Jew-Gentile, is a dynamic running through the Bible. The union is not one of process or continuum; it is union by events. God did not drift gradually into Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:14), male and female did not shade into each other (Genesis 2:24), and Jews and Gentiles did not assimilate into one New Humanity (Ephesians 2:14-16). The relation to these unions of homosexuality is sufficiently non-obvious to make a clarification helpful for respectful listeners.
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Monday 15 March 2010 - 04:03pm
Fern, I am sorry to have troubled you. Firstly, I asked none of the questions that you attributed to me. Secondly, if I could help by removing the word 'physical' from my last sentence I gladly would, although I am not sure why I have to be so ruthlessly manichaeist in my language. The Bible, and all incarnational Christian discourse, takes physical bodies seriously and respectfully; I thought I was doing the same. I raised the subject of sameness in sexual relationships because it seems to me that 'respectful listening' requires this difference between hetero- and homo- sexual attraction to be addressed. I have been puzzled when I, who prefer to sleep with a woman, am accused of 'being afraid of people who are different' by a man who prefers to sleep with a man. This is why your last sentence is so interesting. "Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that sex is relational for gays just as it is for straights?" In the instance above, I'm diagnosed, paradoxically, as being fearful of differentness. When I inquire further about differentness, you demand to know why I can't accept gay and straight sex as identical. No progress in understanding is possible if gays close down the conversation whichever way it goes. I suggest that a male attraction by another male body is related to a desire to have a body like his. I think I can safely assure you that male attraction by a female body is never that. So you beg the question when you seem to say that because gay and straight sex are equally relational (which I don't doubt), there are, therefore, no further questions to be asked about the differences between them. Union of difference, divine-human, male-female, Jew-Gentile, is a dynamic running through the Bible. The union is not one of process or continuum; it is union by events. God did not drift gradually into Jesus of Nazareth (John 1:14), male and female did not shade into each other (Genesis 2:24), and Jews and Gentiles did not assimilate into one New Humanity (Ephesians 2:14-16). The relation to these unions of homosexuality is sufficiently non-obvious to make a clarification helpful for respectful listeners.
 Posted by: Fern  Monday 15 March 2010 - 01:52pm
Richard Why, oh why is there such an obsession with what gays do in bed?  Are you married?  Assuming you are, would you not be taken aback (to put it mildly) if, on meeting you for the first time, I asked whether you and your wife had had sex this week?  Would you not be utterly astounded if I then enquired about particular sexual practices?  Why the focus on genitalia?  Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that sex is relational for gays just as it is for straights? 
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Monday 15 March 2010 - 10:48am
I would be happy to take up Mark's challenge, not merely by listening but by also asking questions about the gay experience. I didn't know this thread was open to such dialogue, but if it is that's fine. My experience of such dialogue so far is that the asking of certain questions is answered by, either silence, or affronted protests that such questions are homophobic, and that equivalent questions would not be asked of heterosexuals. Well, I have asked similar questions of heterosexuals (in "Third Way") and, to be truthful, have received equally prickly heterosexual answers. In terms of this thread, could I ask this. What spiritual, moral and theological implications are there in the gay preference for sameness in physical sexual partnerships?
 Posted by: DavidW  Monday 15 March 2010 - 07:56am
To Mark Bennett, In your post of Sunday 14 March 2010 - 07:30pm your argument has missed the bit that starts the passage with the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth. So the structure of the passage is that because certain people suppressed the truth and their thinking became futile. Their thinking had already become darkened, verse 21, in order to become idolatrous verse 23.   So God didn’t give them over to the fruits of their idolatry, God gave them over to godlessness and wickedness which resulted in fruits of idolatry, same sex relations, murder and the like.   There is no indication of any of the sins listed in Romans 1 being just a distorted type. Do you see a distorted type of murder only when associated with idolatry?   Instead of trying to tell me what I believe the Bible says, let me repeat again what actually says from the NIV version. ‘In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.   The only distortion and assumption is yours, the scripture speaks for itself.   You wrote “ To explore that question means exploring the phenomena of homosexual relationships” Then you are exploring what the Biblical testimony shows is detestable to God and error. As to Lambeth 1.10, it is for all to recognise  that there are among us persons who experience themselves as having a homosexual orientation. Many of these are members of the Church and are seeking the pastoral care, moral direction of the Church, and God's transforming power for the living of their lives and the ordering of relationships. We commit ourselves to listen to the experience of homosexual persons But also cannot advise the legitimising or blessing of same sex unions nor ordaining those involved in same sex gender unions.   What has happened is your side of the argument has ignored half of Lambeth 1.10 whilst demanding to be listened to in attempts to dismantle the other half of the agreement and ignore God's transforming power for the living of lives in order.     So I am confident in the word of God, the Biblical testimony, which the postition of the Anglican Communion upholds, that it excludes and condemns same sex relationships, … yet to see any scripture from you to support what you are saying.   To me it looks like your argument has suppressed the truth and is therefore dark and futile thinking promoting wickedness.
 Posted by: Phil Almond  Sunday 14 March 2010 - 08:35pm
To try and unpick the various understandings of Romans 1:1 to 3:20 which are being put forward, I wonder if the following is common ground:   Romans 1:18 and 3:9-20 is true of every one of us by nature.   Phil Almond
 Posted by: Mark Bennet  Sunday 14 March 2010 - 07:30pm
DavidW - this passage in Romans is talking about people rather than ideas. There is at least an argument to say that the structure of the passage is that because certain people were idolaters God gave them over to the fruits of their idolatry. Of course the point of an idol is that, though it is wrong, it is not so wrong as to be totally incredible - and it might therefore be seen that the fruit of the idolatry is also a distortion. If this is how the argument is structured, the passage is not predicated on the idea that all homosexuality is distorted sexuality, but that all idolatry is distorted worship. It is therefore possible to argue, even here, that the fruit of distorted worship includes distorted homosexuality, and leaves open the space for an undistorted homosexuality. Now you will not accept that argument, but so far you have given nothing to support your point of view apart from the assumption that all homosexuality is wrong, based on your belief that this is what the Bible says. But bringing that assumption to the discussion does not help at all if the matter in question is whether the Bible in fact says what you believe it to say. To explore that question means exploring the phenomena of homosexual relationships and the nuances of the text in what Lambeth 1.10 refers to as a "listening process" - without that exploration we don't even know what the words mean, or whether we mean the same when we use them. If you are confident that your interpretation will stand up to that kind of scrutiny, why are you so afraid of engaging with the issues?
 Posted by: DavidW  Saturday 13 March 2010 - 09:38pm
No, no and no.   Firstly this section is dealing with all unrighteousness. Its says God gave them over to sexual immorality, to sinful desires and to every kind of wickedness. The argument that this passage is only for those given over to idolatry doesn’t work as all the wicked acts mentioned are all mentioned elsewhere as sin. The idea that these acts are only all wrong when associated with idolatry would mean acts such as men with men instead with women , envy, murder and strife are alright if not associated with idolatry. No the passage says they did things they ought not to do when ignoring God and being given over by God.   Secondly, Romans 1 does not say they gave up ‘their’ natural relations, it says they gave ‘the’ natural relations. It is the dysfunctional thinking in terms of faulty concepts of homosexuality and heterosexuality that causes the faulty assumption.   Thirdly the relationships George Day is calling godly are therefore ungodly.   I think we have to realise there is no compromise here.
 Posted by: nersenpaul  Saturday 13 March 2010 - 05:56pm
Hi Simon Lea -  I share your sentiment when you say, "I don't want the CofE to accept a position based on Bibical evidence that I don't think is there."  I understand what you and George Day say but you won't be surprised that I do not think there is strong biblical evidence to support what seems  a contrived interpretaion of Romans 1  -  especially if one reads that passage in the context of the rest of  Romans, the NT and the OT...... and that is why "the mind of the Communion" is what it is i.e.  not condoning behaviour incompatible with scripture and in line with the church catholic today and in the last 2000 years.  I think this piece is relevant to our discussion given it addresses changing position on one issue but not another because of the case not being as persuasive:   http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2009/11/19/does-supporting-same-sex-relationships-really-follow-on-from-supporting-women%e2%80%99s-ordination-a-response-to-david-phillips/  
 Posted by: George Day  Saturday 13 March 2010 - 11:08am
Simon, can I add to what you have so helpfully said re Romans 1 that Paul specifically describes the people he is talking about as those who have "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images..." and as a result "God gave them over..", which seems to imply people who are in a moral and spiritual vaccuum. To apply this desription to those who have a genuine love and honour for the Lord and who are in anything but a moral and spiritual vaccuum, which is what so many on the conservative side do, is not only a distortion of what Paul seems to be saying here, but is frankly totally abusive, and even obscene. Yes, Paul clearly condemns quite a bit of what was going on in his day, and what he says may well be relevant to quite a bit of what happens in our day - I am thinking of the sort of homosexual licentious behaviour we see not infrequently - but it is time we realised Romans 1 does not address the situation of godly same-sex couples who are acting out of love, not lust, and who show no sign of being "handed over" by God.
 Posted by: DavidR  Saturday 13 March 2010 - 10:11am
Simon Lea - thank you for a very clear statement of my own position too on this. Like you, without taking any particular position on homosexual relationships, I want the Bible read and expounded more carefully in this context.
 Posted by: Simon Lea  Saturday 13 March 2010 - 01:04am
nersenpaul - In your reply you talk about the Bible supporting what I might want it to support. And that my 'logic' suggests that we have the freedom to practice whatever we think is acceptable (as long as it is not mentioned in the Bible). I made no such suggestion. I pointed out that human relationships have changed over time and that some homosexual relationships that exist today did not exist at the time of writing [the Bibical material] and so were not referred to in the passages. You assume that I want the CofE to accept a particular position on homosexual relationships. The only thing that can safely be inferred from my post is that I don't want the CofE to accept a position based on Bibical evidence that I don't think is there. Richard Wilkins - Romans 1:26 talks of men and women 'giving up' their natural relations and of committing 'shameless acts'. This clearly refers to people giving up one type of relation to another human being and embarking on a different type of relationship. I think it is reasonable to assume that what Paul labels a 'shameless act' is an act that the agent ought to be ashamed of but feels no shame. It is substantial stretch to take a homosexual today, living in a relationship that (his or her homosexual acts not withstanding) would not be considered shameful and to say of him or her that they have given up their natural relations and are committing act they ought to feel ashamed of. What must be the case [if you want to oppose homosexuality] is that homosexual acts in themselves are shameful and that unrepentant homosexuals do not realise this and are, accordingly, shameless. The proof of this, however, is not in the passage. It seems much more likely [for someone not looking for passages to prove existing ideas] that Paul is talking about heterosexuals, in heterosexual relationships going off and engaging in sexual acts with people of their own sex. Why else would Paul talk of 'giving up' natural passions. You also mention arsenokoitai but we can not for sure say what this word means. Perhaps you can explain the difference between the greek words arsenokoits and androkoits? Especially why Paul didn't use the latter if he is referring to homosexuality. In none of Paul's writing does he appear to be talking about a type of homosexuality we find today. In your post you object to my claim that the type of human relationship that occurs today did not occur in ancient world by listing a number of kinds of relationship that do not exist today. You make the distinction yourself by talking about gay relationships that were accepted, legal and frequent. Relatioships between Roman emperors and men and, most bizarrely, gay lovers whose affection was said to promote military efficiency. All these relationships occurred, for sure, but they do not exist today. It is not clear that Paul was referring to any or all of the homosexual relationships (as opposed to any or all homosexual acts) that occurred during his time. And it is certain that he was not referring to all homosexual relationships (and acts) that occur today. I'm not saying that this means that homosexuals ought to be married in Church, be allowed to take part in Holy Communion, be ordained, or be burnt at the stake. All I'm saying is that the Bible does not refer to people living in mutually respectful and loving homosexual relationships today.
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Friday 12 March 2010 - 12:32pm
Simon Lea - "Whilst homosexual acts occurred [frequently] during, what I'll call, Bible times, 'homosexuality' as in a committed love-match and partnership did not occur in ancient Jewish communities. The Jewish law, and Paul's instruction to early Christian churches, did not refer to homosexual love-matches." Sorry, Simon, but I don't know how you can know that the non-recognition of homosexual love-matches in ancient Jewish communities is what governed Paul's ethical attitudes. For a start, Paul's teaching in Romans 1:24-27 states that homosexual desire as sinful, as compared with the ban on merely homosexual acts in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Secondly, committed love matches were well known in Greek culture, with which Paul was familiar. The Greeks honoured the Sacred League of Thebes, 300 pairs of gay lovers whose mutual affection was said to promote military efficiency. (see also Robert Gagnon "The Bible and Homosexual Practice" 2001) and William J Webb "Slaves, Women and Homosexuals" 2001). Gay affirming historian John Boswell notes that Plato and Plutarch wrote approvingly of such love matches. He writes Gay marriages were also legal and frequent in Rome for both males and females. Even emperors often married other males. There was total acceptance on the part of the populace, as far as it can be determined, of this sort of homosexual attitude and behaviour. Paul was sufficiently eclectic in finding examples of good practice to have transferred 1 Corinthians 13 (hauntingly like a speech by Socrates in the "Symposium") in his mind to sexual love between males. We would expect him to at least restrain his language about same-sex desire in Romans 1 and arsenokoitai in 1 Corinthians 6. But he didnt.
 Posted by: DavidW  Friday 12 March 2010 - 09:55am
Well I support nersenpaul’s post, but I would point out this. Those promoting this same sex relationship false teaching have already disregarded the mind of the Anglican Communion and proceeded to demand the change be accepted. Sadly such an assumption that there might have been some sexual element to the friendships of David and Jonathan and Jesus and the disciple John can only be made having disregarded the rest of the Biblical testimony holistically. It is an assumption based on unbelief.   The answer to the assumption is no there definitely wasn’t any sexual element and indeed it wouldn’t have been anything like the faithful monogamous homosexual partnership they subsequently propose; it would have been a promiscuous bisexual one in the case of Jonathan and David.   If one ca accept an assumption contrary to what the Bible says on one issue one can make anything up. That’s why it is a good litmus test of the historic apostolic faith.
 Posted by: DavidW  Friday 12 March 2010 - 07:44am
To Simon Lea, So having asked which scriptures apply you reply with none. Why are we still debating if one side of the argument is baseless? The Biblical testimony of God not only has no concept of the modern idea of homosexuality, but it rules it out. God’s purpose in creating woman to be with man is hardly His purpose for creating man for man. Love isn’t sex, in the modern concept a heterosexual love isn’t necessarily in line with God’s purpose either if its adultery. Same sex sexual relationships are condemned as error and detestable so that includes the modern concept. Friendships are not restricted by the sex of the people like homosexual relationships are. The concept of 'homosexual love match' is therefore another humanistic error and contrary to God’s purposes and what God's love is. The only relationships in God’s purpose for us are faithful man/woman unions or celibacy. The LGCM argument is one constructed in their own minds that the temptation they have is somehow the norm and God has it wrong. As soon as one speaks and thinks in terms of 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' one has already cut across the truth of what God has created and lost the plot with dysfucntional thought and any sense of reality.    
 Posted by: nersenpaul  Friday 12 March 2010 - 07:38am
Simon Lea -  lots of things are not mentioned directly in scripture (eg euthanasia and abortion) but that does not necessarily give us freedom to practise them as long as we think they are acceptable, as your logic would suggest......... issues do not have to be mentioned to be addressed by biblical teaching.   The bible does talk of very close friendships, e.g. David and Jonathan, and even a disciple who was loved........but never supports what you might want it to support in terms of behaviour....does it?   Why not?   Other issues were explicitly addressed e.g. we are free, with apostolic authority, to eat non-kosher food (quite fancy a bacon sandwich this morning) and gentiles do not have to have any uncomfortable procedures in order to consider themselves redeemed -  why is there no blessing or apostolic authority for what you might want the CofE to accept?  The ABC has been honest that the bible says nothing positive to justify a change in what he calls  "the mind of the Communion" or the teaching of the church"    
 Posted by: Simon Lea  Thursday 11 March 2010 - 07:52pm
>> Can I ask which exactly are the NT scriptures which countenance the sort of slavery we had in the 18th century slave trade? [DavidW] When attitudes to slavery in the Bible are compared to attitudes to homosexuality people often make comparisons between slavery in the ancient world and 18th C. slavery. Yet the same people do not draw a distinction between 'homosexuality' in the ancient world and homosexuality today. The usual comment (that I'm not ascribing to DavidW necessarily) is that 'people in the ancient world got up to the same sorts of things that people do today'. This is homosexuality consider as 'homosexual acts' rather than homosexuality. Whilst homosexual acts occurred [frequently] during, what I'll call, Bible times, 'homosexuality' as in a committed love-match and partnership did not occur in ancient Jewish communities. The Jewish law, and Paul's instruction to early Christian churches, did not refer to homosexual love-matches. In Genesis, for example, we see with Abraham and Jacob, what would be considered the rape and enforced pregnancy of women in submission. This was acceptable then but not today. Human relationships have changed over time. This is understood by most of society today and our attitudes have evolved. Whether they have evolved for the better is, as we have seen from this recurring discussion, a matter of opinion.    
 Posted by: DavidW  Thursday 11 March 2010 - 01:27pm
And a superb post from yourself Richard Wilkins.  
 Posted by: DavidW  Thursday 11 March 2010 - 12:33pm
There are some alarmingly serious flaws in the Bishop of Liverpool's address. Firstly, I do not see the relevance of any further comparison of what Christians are supposed to believe as though Christians can't be tested wrong in their belief. Just because some Christians believed the slave trade was acceptable and others didn't and some are pacifists and others not doesnt mean all views must be accepted. What the Bishop seems to be saying is if some Christians believe something we should all accept it and share communion despite differences.  Sadly this doesnt work, one can accept a view that both accomodates and excludes at the same time. Another major problem I have is in his comment 'the cup of salvation' According to the Biblical testimony of Christ we are saved from such sin as same sex relationships. Has he missed the whole point of the gospel?  Why does he focus on loss of life, which is a tangent anyway, rather than the postential loss of eternal life? Some major concerns for me here.
 Posted by: David Baker  Thursday 11 March 2010 - 09:44am
Good article, Andrew. I salute your clear biblical thinking and gracious tone. For those concerned about slavery there is an interesting article on the Catholic Encyclpedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14036a.htm Best wishes, David Baker
 Posted by: DavidW  Thursday 11 March 2010 - 07:56am
To Mark Bennet, Thanks for your reply, yes I expected Colossians 3.22, it’s the same as Ephesians 6:5. But firstly this doesn’t countenance anything like the slave trade as it just says obey, Ephesians 6 also says for masters to treat slaves well. So you might assume this supports ‘slavery’ but it certainly doesn’t support the 18th century slave trade or that type of slavery. Now as to homosexual practice, you will also see these chapters also refer to wives submitting to husbands, and vice versa, and children obeying parents, because there is a master, Christ, above all. Homosexual practice is once again absent and outside that. But if Colossians 3 and Ephesians 6 really do refer to what slaves and wives and husbands and children should do, then 1 Corinthians 5-7 and Romans 1 really do exclude and condemn same sex relations.   QED   David, I would claim that the LGCM are the biblical deviants of today, and more so than those who supported slavery as at least as we have seen there are scriptures people made wrong assumptions on, unlike homosexual practice which has no possible countenance and is clearly excluded and condemned.
 Posted by: nersenpaul  Thursday 11 March 2010 - 07:51am
So, the slave trade was compatible with scripture???  What a tangled web we weave when we try to justify accepting behaviour which is incompatible with scripture in the church today!   We are not talking about some Roman slaves who were somewhat closer to the modern day wage-slaves (like me!) which we call 'employees', but the slave trade which John Newton spoke against and Wilberforce (and Clarkson!) fought to abolish.... that slave trade was compatible with scripture and Wilberforce and Newton were going against scripture??  Seriously?   Some great people were wrong on the slavery issue and the CofE was wrong too...so we must tolerate behaviour incompatible with scripture today?  Not convinced by that "logic"! I refer to the "mind of the Communion" because some try to pretend (or just lie) that it is not what it is but the ABC is honest about where the AC stands so I use his phrase to show I am not pushing my personal view but his unbiased view -   but I only think that 'mind' has any authority in so far as it is compatible with scripture.......precisely because the CofE can be wrong (e.g. re slavery in the past)  and the AC can be wrong  - but scripture is altogether more reliable....a classical Anglican position!    
 Posted by: Richard Wilkins  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 10:02pm
Mindful of the late William Vanstone's likening of the Church to a swimming pool, "all the noise is at the shallow end", I listen hopefully to a vast silence in this noisy debate. I agree with Andrew Goddard's take on Bishop James Jones' address. The liberals' solemn appeals for a church in which they and their conservative fellow-Anglicans can live together in peaceful debate is laughable. They expect their institutionalised gay-affirmation to triumph in the Church by the pressures from secular opinion and law. Then the 'equally valid' conviction of historic orthodox Anglicanism will become a pariah. In his section "Sexuality and Theology", Andrew usefully questions the assumption that a 'given', ie 'natural' tendency cannot be sinful, providing only that it is 'loving'. The ambiguities of 'loving' are worth exploring in more detail, but not here. The truly fatal disunity in the Church is between those who consider human nature on its tender side to be virtually identical with God's intended creation, and those who believe otherwise. Not surprisingly the secular press cannot understand this: 'Those who are natural (NRSV margin) cannot understand the things of God's Spirit'(1 Cor 2:14). The issue is deeper than a mere spat between heterosexualists and the rest. It is about the offering of ourselves, including our sexuality, to God for Him to transform by His new creation. For some reason our sexuality is a particularly lively element in our souls, so that we may need to make a first offering of our sexuality to God for Him to return it to us as He wills. This affects every Christian, 'gay' or 'straight'. A new Christian who is naturally heterosexual will be changed by this experience. I do not presuppose that transformed natural homosexuals will become heterosexuals, only that like natural heterosexuals, their newly controlled sexuality will be a new divine 'given'. This gift of control should not be resented, or rejected either sexuality in favour of an unconsecrated 'naturalness'. There is a widespread hope (for lack of anything better) that the higher side of human nature can be the foundation for Christian living. P T Forsyth (1848-1921) said of this hope "The Church itself is ruled by this pagan dream. It offers a God consecrating nature's initial instinct with his benediction, as a marriage service might; and then it stands by with the Cross to console or stay us when the scheme fails and our hopes come to grief. But that is not the method of God's revelation in the Cross. It does not come in to grout the gaps in nature, not simply to bless nature but to change it, to make a new earth from a foundation in a new heaven - from a new exercise of God's divinest power, that of creating" (The Justification of God 1917). In that common experience of regeneration, Christians whose originally 'given' sexuality was either heterosexual or homosexual may join in a new journey together, within the new nature that has been given to them in Christ.
 Posted by: Mark Bennet  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 04:55pm
DavidW On slavery try Colossians 3.22ff (which does not say, for example, masters free your slaves) - if you want to distinguish 18th Century slavery from the 1st Century slavery being described in Colossians you will perhaps see why there are people who want to distinguish between the 1st Century homosexual practices in scripture, and the homosexual practices and relationships of the 21st Century. Whether you consider the argument is a good one or not, it is a parallel to the one you are making on slavery. This suggests that the parallel with slavery, whilst having some problems, and the two not being identical, does face us with a test of whether we are approaching scripture consistently in the two cases.
 Posted by: DavidR  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 03:44pm
(Sorry - just found some information I thought I had lost to add to my last post to Nersen) 'As for the lawfulness of keeping Slaves I have no doubt' Wicked revisionist slave trader? - George Whitfield actually. He kept slaves all his life on his West Indies plantation. Even the Countess of Huntingdon preferred to stress the 'spiritual' liberation of slaves and would not be recruited to the emancipation campaign. These are solid mainstream evangelical leaders not 'revisionists'.
 Posted by: DavidR  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 03:28pm
nersen paul, you are claiming that it was the Christian slave traders were the biblical revisionists of their day. They were biblical deviants? The 'mind of the communion' was elsewhere all the time? Sort of C18 versions of modern day supporters of same sex relationships presumably? How convenient. That can only be true if you can argue that for 1800 years up to that point the church had been explicitly and actively anti slavery on biblical grounds. Where is there evidence for that please? Even the NT church, where many of the first Christians were slaves themselves, led no campaign for emancipation that we know of? Paul actually sends one slave back to his owner doesn't he? (Your use of NT at this point is extraordinary)
 Posted by: DavidW  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 11:06am
Simon Morden offers the same unsupported views as Jonathan Clatworthy. Can I ask which exactly are the NT scriptures which countenance the sort of slavery we had in the 18th century slave trade? The NT teaching says we are all slaves, either to righteousness or sin, whatever has mastered us. I would be happy to discuss the issue of slavery in the NT both spiritually and in worldly terms.   Could some of you tell me which passages justify same sex relationships, especially in the light of the passages that exclude and condemn them? I mean one has to have verses to apply context to.   Unlike Simon I believe we can discern misuse of the Bible from different interpretation…. and do.
 Posted by: nersenpaul  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 10:48am
not slavery again, Simon.....you would have a point if today we took a revisionist stance against an emphatically pro-slavery scriptural position  -   but the bible says "there is no slave nor free" in Christ......and tells us that someone taught that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.......Wilberforce was not being "radical" in any revisionist sense  but, in fact, he was fighting the revisionist abuse of scripture by the English slave traders who tried to justify their sins and their society's attitudes despite their behaviour being incompatible with scripture........best we don't follow their example.
 Posted by: Simon Morden  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 09:59am
(just a note to say I'm trying this with some html tags to see if I can force some formatting - so excuse some of the seemingly random characters if they appear) Like Jonathan, I can see some hope here. After the Wycliffe Hall debacle, which covered no one on the committee with glory, I lost a lot of respect for +Jones - he's gone a long way to redeem himself with this speech. This ties in partly with the article written by Martin Kuhrt (accessible from the front page) on "How Christian is the Bible?", where I think he makes several errors that are relevant to this discussion. The chief of these is the apologetic that "good Christians" sometimes use the Bible to back their bad behaviour - Martin lists those who "seek to bolster their positions of wealth and power, to justify the plundering of the environment, the institution of slavery, the oppression of women, and lack of compassion for the poor." The phase I've heard often is "the antidote to misuse is not disuse, but right use." The problem here is that he has no way of discerning misuse from right use if he takes just the Bible with no external input. Slavery was not justified Biblically by taking a few verses out of context and twisting them - the Biblical justification for slavery is written there, in black and white, through Old and New Testaments. Those who kept slaves and argued for their retention were thoroughly scriptural - good evangelicals who used their Bibles and 'the mind of the Communion' as justification for some really very bad behaviour. People like Wilberforce were radicals - and I know he's been claimed as an evangelical icon - kicking against a conservative reading of scripture until it broke. And I think this where we are now - Jonathan notes that Andrew's arguments seem a little threadbare, as if he's lost already. It's often said by conservatives that "a church married to the spirit of this age will be widows in the next". I think I actually agree with this: the tragedy being that it's the conservatives who are already widowed, having been married to a past 'golden age' of Christendom which is very much dead and buried.
 Posted by: DavidW  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 07:49am
To Johnathan Clatworthy, Can you give some scriptural support for your bizarre claims please?   Yes it does indeed take courage to be in a position of authority in society, we should all pray fro those in authority whether we agree with them or not. (ie Romans 8) and of course the scripture says God will hold leaders to greater account.   Again, same sex relationships, men with men instead of women is error according to the Biblical testimony, therefore your view seems to be that God is anti-gay because some people wish to do what to God is error.   I see no evidence that Matthew and Mark had got it wrong over divorce, which is of course not the issue of same sex relationships, and there is no hornet's nest in 1 Corinthians  7 for anyone who has chosen to follow Christ; 1 Corinthians 7 mirrors Matthew 19 where Jesus says some choose to be eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom.   What Christians think has not always been a good witness to the gospel so I don’t see how such reflections help unless there is some scripture to test them against.
 Posted by: nersenpaul  Wednesday 10 March 2010 - 07:39am
J Clatworthy asserts that Andrew Goddard is anti something (falsely accusing AG of a prejudice?) and then asserts that AG cannot "get past" his view being "traditional, scriptural"  -   but Clatworthy offers no evidence to back up his assertions......because AG's view is in line with what the ABC calls "the mind of the Communion" and even "the church catholic"  -  and the socially liberal ABC has even written that "clergy are not at liberty simply to disregard" the "teaching of the church"  -   but some do, showing a lack of integrity. Then we get the old, weak point that people have always disagreed....so what?  Could that be because not all of them were right? Are we still allowed to say that some may have been wrong or has all logic completely left the Anglican building?  The instructions to the Corinthians were not some James Jones style 'ignore the contradictions, live and let live' fudge ......and for good reasons, explained by the apostle. 
 Posted by: Philip Mounstephen  Tuesday 9 March 2010 - 09:20pm
That's an interesting take on the Elizabethan Settlement (in which church going was compulsory, with severe fines for recusancy). Hardly a broad haven of liberal reflection, I think. 'Uniformity' was quite a big deal, really. One of the things that concerns me in this is how ill it seems to fit with traditional Anglican polity. There seems to be an assumption here that what the Bishop thinks is what the Diocese thinks (let alone the assumption that what the Diocese of Liverpool thinks the rest of the Church of England and the rest of the Anglican Communion should come to think). That does not seem to me to be an Anglican model of Episcopacy (Elizabethan or otherwise).
 Posted by: Philip Wainwright  Tuesday 9 March 2010 - 08:30pm
>the Elizabethan Anglican tradition, where we stay together and debate our >differences within the church, not across the barricades Isn't that exactly what Goddard was doing? I didn't see anything in what he said about leaving the church and building a bigger one up the hill, just debate about whether Jones's arguments were sound. So far Goddard is ahead in the debate, I think
 Posted by: Jonathan Clatworthy  Tuesday 9 March 2010 - 04:59pm
I live in Liverpool, and this is one of those occasions when I feel proud of my bishop. I don't agree with everything he says, but for a bishop to admit he was wrong and change his mind takes a lot of courage. Many bishops tell us what they really think only after they have retired. This is not Andrew at his best. For all his discussion of Jones' reasons for acknowledging diversity of opinion within the church, he can't get past his insistence that being anti-gay is traditional, scriptural, etc. Christians have always disagreed with each other about sexual ethics. Matthew believed Mark had got it wrong over divorce, and even before that 1 Cor 7 reveals a hornet's nest over sexual abstinence. Andrew's approach represents the sectarian Calvinist tradition, where everyone has to believe the same thing if they want to stay in the church. When they disagree, one side leaves and builds their own church, if possible larger than the old church and further up the hill. James Jones has embraced the Elizabethan Anglican tradition, where we stay together and debate our differences within the church, not across the barricades. It is this tradition which has kept Anglicanism united so far. Anglicanism began in England, which led the world in science for a few centuries. It did so because, instead of just accepting inherited authorities, it looked for evidence. And yes, there's loads of evidence that most people who self-describe as gay did not choose gayness: they found themselves gay, despite the massive social disadvantages, and that's relevant to the question of how God made us and expects us to behave. In 1992 when the Church of England accepted women priests, the opposition quickly degenerated from being The Establishment, led by people with a wider view of Christian witness, into being a minority interest only of concern to a small number who were totally wrapped up in defending an all-male priesthood. They often developed petty pedantic arguments to claim that they were the true church. Andrew, it sounds to me as if you're moving in this direction. Many of your criticisms of Jones are about minor details. Almost as if you knew, in your heart of heart, that you're losing...
 Posted by: DavidW  Tuesday 9 March 2010 - 08:51am
To me it is disappointing that all Christian forums now seem to degenerate into being dominated by unreconcilable discussions on same sex relationships.  I also note that liberals keep wanting to affirm unity and a broad church. It might be worth pointing out that the broad church they want includes what divides. Many of the majority in the Anglican Communion have the view that same sex relationships is a communion breaker, and rightly so, so why do liberals think division is somehow unity? Would it not be better if the churches split into Christian and 'Gay Christian' bearing in mind there will be some believing homosexuals in the Christian church?  
 Posted by: DavidW  Tuesday 9 March 2010 - 08:41am
Thanks for a very good post Carl. I was struck by two things above all. Firstly all authority in heaven and on earth is given to Jesus for disciples to make disciples to teach other disciples to obey all that authority. Matthew 28. Anyone therefore teaching contrary to that authority, has only human authority, which is rebellion, it doesn’t have the authority of Christ. So believers are not bound to submit at all. The call to obedience of authority means that believers will have to leave a denomination/fellowship that becomes apostate and put themselves under correct authority. God judges the apostate. However, the position of the Anglican Communion has been settled with the correct Biblically supported position of Lambeth 1.10, so it would not be disobeying to go against pro-LGCM Bishops. If a church organisation lets disobedience fester, a house divided cannot stand.
 Posted by: carl  Tuesday 9 March 2010 - 05:49am
There is no mystery as to why Bishop Jones omitted all details about how his proposal could actually be implemented. No practical implementation exists that can achieve the desired synthesis within a unitary organization. People are not interested in being told "We respect your opinion, and the integrity with which you hold it." They are interested in seeing their principles employed as the foundation for the order and function of the church. Ultimately, a single church cannot simultaneously approve and disapprove of something. It cannot order itself acceding to mutually-exclusive principles. [ para break ] In the practical reality of implementation, a church must choose between first principles. It must choose to either approve or disapprove. Once the choice is made, the competing sides have been divided into winners and losers. The winning side has been declared normative. The winners see the church ordered and functioning according to their first principles. The losers receive the thin gruel of being told "We greatly value your dissent of conscience." If the issue carries sufficient significance, the losers are offered the difficult choice of compromise or departure. The respect they have been offered has no physical instantiation. It has no tangible reality. There is no place in the church where they can go and say "Here is where the church functions as I think it of right aught to function." Whatever words might be offered about "living with diversity" that fact remains that the church has chosen to teach by word and example that winning side is right. [ para break ] In the conflict over ordaining Women bishops, this is exactly how the fight is playing out. A separate province is exactly what ACs demanded, and exactly what ACs were denied. They wanted a separate province precisely so that there would exist within the church a place ordered and functioning in accordance with their non-negotiable principles. Because this could not be achieved without creating a de facto division, this solution was denied them. Instead they have been offered an illusion of ordering the church according to those rejected principles. Yet it is only an illusion, and everyone agrees that this is the fact. ACs were told "You must settle for the illusion. It is the best we can do." They won't do so. [ para break ] Bishop Jones' solution would trigger a parallel crisis regarding homosexual bishops. The church either will or will not consecrate homosexuals to the office of bishop. Once it knowingly does so, it can never again say that homosexuals are unfit for the office. It has taught by word and example that those who object are wrong. Such objectors will be told that their conscientious objection is valued. Yet where do they go to see that valued objection realized? How would they resist being ghettoized in a church structure that will increasing see their position as retrograde? How do they avoid the authority of homosexual bishops? In theory, they can reject such authority. In practice they are bound to submit to it. Principles that cannot be acted upon in real life are not in fact freely held. [ para break ] One has only to consider the converse of this case to see the fundamental truth of my assertions. Ask yourself. Would those progressives agitating for consecration of open homosexuals to the office of bishop be satisfied with being told "We respect your position of conscience." No, of course not. Unless the theory becomes fact, their desires are frustrated. It is not the idea they seek after, but the realization of the idea. No less so for conservatives. In the end a choice has to be made. Winners and losers have to be decided. Only one set of foundational principles can undergird a church, and no amount of blather about "living with diversity" can cover up this fact. carl
 Posted by: Simon Lea  Monday 8 March 2010 - 11:07pm
John's philosophy professor was correct when he said that "Analogy cannot be relied on in the context of formal logic." Brett's objection to John's professor, that "analogy is one of those fundamental trophes of human thinking that allow us conceptual purchase on the mystery that is the world" is also correct. The professor was talking about 'formal logic' and Brett is talking about 'human thinking'. Critical thinking involves the use of logic but there is more to it than that. Andrew is not criticizing the Bishop for using analogy, he thinks that the analogy used isn't very helpful.
 Posted by: Philip Mounstephen  Monday 8 March 2010 - 09:23pm
Thank you Andrew. A model of charity and clarity. You've done the Church a great service.
 Posted by: Brett Gray  Monday 8 March 2010 - 06:35pm
This isn't a point for or against the Bishop of Liverpool. It's just a point in defence of analogy as a conceptual tool, especially in theological argument. Regardless of the pronouncements of John's philosophy prof, analogy is one of those fundamental trophes of human thinking that allow us conceptual purchase on the mystery that is the world, let alone the mystery that is God. The trick with analogy, of course, is to recognise that it works with an interplay of both similarity and difference. To say A is an analogue to B is to say that A is both like and unlike B. The danger, logically, is that one forgets the latter while claiming the former. To say the issue of sexuality is analogous to the the issue of just war/pacificsm is to claim that they bear remarkable similarities, the noting of which may helps us to understand them both better, but it is not to say that they are similar in all respects or collapseable into each other. That would be a bad (logically faulty?) use of analogy. And analogy does play a fundamental role in theology. Almost anything we can say about God must be said analogically. To say God is love is to speak in analogy, to say what God is is both profoundly like what we know of as love, and yet profoundly unlike what we know of as love. I dare anyone to try to do theology without resort to analogy - it's fundamental to the tool kit of the Christian imagination. So, John, your prof needed to make more room for analogy. IMHO.
 Posted by: DavidW  Monday 8 March 2010 - 06:01pm
Well its a very good but also a very kind appraisal of the Bishop of Liverpool's address. Sadly however this issue is a litmus test of faith. Its like saying any sin is acceptable because like any other sin, same sex relationships are only excluded and condemned and there is no countenance for them. Sadly the Bishop is losing the plot on this one and thats the danger of listening to baseless opinion rather than the truth of God's word. If sin is a barrier to the Kingdom of God then it doesn't matter how sincere an opinion is held, it is doomed. One of the deceptions that comes with this is the idea that it is Christian and loving to compromise, which is another baseless claim as the scriptures show such as 1 Corinthians 5.
 Posted by: Iconoclast  Monday 8 March 2010 - 05:44pm
A very well reasoned and argued piece by Andrew Goddard. It is depressing that Bishop Jones cannot see where his line of reasoning would eventually lead the CofE - down the same path as TEC.
 Posted by: John Martin  Monday 8 March 2010 - 03:53pm
Thanks Andrew. I notice that one of the points of fragility you identify in the James Jones address is his dependence on analogies. In Philosophy 101 (more years ago than I care to remember) my professor thundered, "Analogy cannot be relied on in the context of formal logic." I'm really surprised that the Bishop of Liverpool ventured there, and his use of just war as an analogy helps no-one.
 Posted by: Graham Kings  Monday 8 March 2010 - 12:06pm
We have just published on Fulcrum, 'Accepting Ethical Diversity? A Critical Appraisal of the Bishop of Liverpool's Presidential Address', by Andrew Goddard. Please use this forum thread to discuss the issues raised. Please also check your comments before posting them as to whether they go beyond the bounds of courtesy. 'Rigour without rancour' is the watchword for Fulcrum forums and is exemplified in Andrew Goddard's article.   A reminder that comments are moderated and may well not be approved if bounds of courtesy are crossed. Let the poster understand...

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