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Scriptural Faithfulness, Inclusion and Truth in Pastoral Care

A response to Steve Chalke

by Martin Kuhrt

Steve Chalke has declared that his understanding of the principles of justice, reconciliation and inclusion which sit at the very heart of Jesus’ message lead him now to embrace homosexual unions. He claims that this is the result of his ‘grappling with Scripture’ and that he is not meaning to enter the debate about gay marriage. His argument can be summarised under three headings; scripture, the inclusion imperative, and pastoral necessity. I have made this response to the extended article on the Oasis website rather than the slightly abridged version in Christianity magazine. The link is:

http://www.oasisuk.org/inclusionresources/Articles/MOI#_ftn2

Scripture

Chalke’s explanation of what he believes the Bible to be is worth quoting in full from his article. He says “Through my hermeneutical lens, the Bible is the account of the ancient conversation initiated, inspired and guided by God with and among humanity. It is a conversation where various, sometimes harmonious and sometimes discordant, human voices contribute to the gradually growing picture of the character of Yahweh; fully revealed only in Jesus.  But it is also a conversation that, rather than ending with the finalisation of the canon, continues beyond it involving all of those who give themselves to Christ’s on-going redemptive movement.”

Rather than try to offer an immediate critique of this ‘hermeneutical lens’, I’d like to examine what Chalke sees through this lens regarding the subject of sexuality in the Scriptures. At times he seems to say that the Bible is misunderstood by orthodox Christians, just as Luther misunderstood Joshua 10.13 by thinking it ruled out Copernicus’s theory of the solar system. At other times, he seems to imply that Scriptural prohibitions are either irrelevant, wrong or super-ceded as the ‘conversation’ develops. So with regard to the negative material about same gender genital activity in the Old Testament (in particular Leviticus 20.13) he implies that here the ‘conversation’ is still at quite a primitive stage, and hasn’t got round to recognising the principle of ‘inclusion’, which he sees as clearly breached in Leviticus 21.16-23 where disabled descendants of Aaron are forbidden from approaching the altar of the tabernacle.

With regard to the Old and New Testament, he sees some of the material as irrelevant because the biblical writers ‘knew nothing of the stable gay relationships we see today’. He says that Romans 1 is only talking about wild promiscuous sex, or ‘experimentation’ or male shrine prostitution. His exegesis is underpinned by his feeling that the gay Christians he knows seem not to share any of the deplorable characteristics of fallen mankind as listed in that chapter.

The New Testament conversation, Chalke seems to say, is also incomplete in the same way that its conversation regarding women and slavery is incomplete. But he seems to go further than saying Scripture leaves some things open-ended and needing further conversation. With regard to slavery, he says that both Testaments endorse slavery and therefore (he implies) can now been seen to be plainly wrong. He says, citing 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14, that ‘the Scriptures are very clear [my emphasis] about the role of women in Christian communities’. In saying that we haven’t allowed Scripture to have the final word on the subject of women’s ministry he is using rather smooth language to suggest that actually these Pauline injunctions are rightly seen as prejudiced, ignorant or misogynistic and it is a jolly good thing that we have moved on. And so in the same way that we moved on over women and slavery we should do so about homosexuality.

It’s not easy to engage with Chalke’s arguments because they do seem to slide in a rather slippery way between these two different tacks. On the one hand, he espouses a kind of evolutionary, progressive revelation, ‘Scripture as conversation’ approach in which the Old Testament is now effectively to be seen as bad, the New Testament better (but only marginally in the case of Paul), and ‘modern understanding’ the best. On the other hand, he sometimes argues that Scripture (both Old and New Testaments) has been misunderstood and is not really negative at all about men ‘having sex’ with men or women with women, but only negative about ‘experimentation, promiscuity and shrine prostitution’.

Chalke offers little in the way of coherent exegesis of the relevant texts. His treatment of Genesis 1 and 2 and Jesus reflection on this in Matthew 19.4-6 is to suggest that Jesus had a deeper purpose in mind than merely pointing to the intentionally indissoluble physical union of male and female and was only using an example of what was the ‘norm’ (rather than the ‘ideal’, or the Creator’s intention). Thus the union of husband and wife is no more ideal than right-handedness. Just as left-handedness is not the ‘norm’ (in the sense that left-handed people are in the minority), so gay people are not ‘the norm’ but their sexual relationships should not be regarded as less than ideal. Chalke doesn’t say what Jesus’ deeper purpose was though I would guess he would say something like ‘loving faithfulness’ without really defining what that might mean in terms of practical living.

Jesus’ conclusions from the first two Genesis chapters concern the Creator’s intended permanence of marriage, and the physical union of man and wife is seen as the symbolic enactment of that intended faithful permanence. Only the union of male and female in marriage is ordained by God to be both an exclusive relationship and a symbol of permanence. Only marriage as revealed in the bible brings the sexes together in loving complementarity, engendering life.

Chalke’s method of biblical interpretation allows him easily to dismiss Leviticus 20.13 because he assumes the ban on disabled priests offering food at the altar is clearly nasty to disabled people. It is contra the inclusion imperative. But symbolic exclusion was an integral part of the Old Testament sacrificial system which God instituted, in order to teach the Israelites something of the holiness of God. It was not just disabled people who could not offer food at the altar, it was anyone who was not a descendant of Aaron, or an adult, or a man, or free from a skin disease. It was clearly a ritual or ceremonial law designed to be appropriate for Old Testament times as part of the old covenant but not part of the new when the sacrificial system has been fulfilled in Christ.

However, as the Reformers understood and Article VII of the Thirty Nine Articles declares, the moral commandments in the Old Testament are still relevant to ethical behaviour among Christian people. This is because they concern the unchanging character of God. The Leviticus commandment in chapter 20.13 is clearly a moral commandment because it also occurs in Lev 18.22 as part of a lengthy list of sexual sins (including incest, adultery and bestiality) which are said to have defiled the nations who lived in the land before Israel. These commands must all have been clearly moral ones if the pagan nations were condemned for breaching them.

The one puzzling command in Leviticus 18 is verse 19 which forbids a man from approaching a woman for sex during her period. This appears to be a ritual or ceremonial law only, because it doesn’t seem to us today that it is immoral to have intercourse during menstruation. My tentative view on this is that one consequence of this law was that it would have prevented men from having carte blanche to have sex with their women whenever they felt like it with no consent from the women. Women were given some dignity and protection within marriage. To violate a woman who was bleeding (and presumably who had informed him of this and thus not given consent) was perhaps akin to marital rape and therefore was a moral command as well as a ritual and ceremonial law making the woman ‘unclean’ during the period of menstruation.

Chalke does not pay much attention to the epistles. His treatment of Romans 1 is very weak and he fails to grasp what it is really saying. Romans 1.18-32 does not say that people who engage in homosexual practices are the worst specimens of humanity or have deliberately set out to push the boundaries of wickedness as far as they can. What it says is that same sex sexual desires are a symptom of a fallen world in which idolatry has taken the place of the worship of the true God. Homosexual practices and drives are a judgment on the whole of godless society rather than on a few, especially evil, people. The sins listed in verses in 28-32 are not associated necessarily with people who commit sexual acts with people of the same gender but on a godless society in which the corruption of sexuality is a prominent feature in a spiralling down into general depravity.

Chalke’s ‘developing conversation’ approach set out in his explanation of his ‘hermeneutical lens’ leads him to say that Scripture endorses both slavery and the oppression of women, and as we are now enlightened enough to take a different view on these things, we should do so in a similar way with homosexuality. However, his treatment of Scripture in coming to this conclusion is woefully simplistic. In the Old Testament and New slavery was often the lesser of two evils (the greater being death as a result of war or famine). It was recognised as a fact of life in the ancient world and regulated humanely under covenantal law in the Old Testament. In the New Testament the practice of slavery was subjected to Gospel implications. The transatlantic slave trade abolished by Western Christendom in the 19th century was the worst of all possible evils as it involved ‘Christian’ nations in sheer unmitigated cruelty and barbarism on an industrial scale, largely for reasons of commercial greed. Nowhere does the bible ‘endorse’ such evil. Bible-believing evangelical Christians like Wilberforce recognised this and were far more in tune with the bible than those whose motivation was to misuse Scripture in support of their own interests. It was the establishment that opposed abolition and used seemingly knock-down quotes from establishment clergy whose biblical understanding was shallow.

Likewise Chalke falls over himself in his eagerness to agree with the most chauvinistic, reactionary and crudely unintelligent interpretations of texts about women. He dismisses the many examples of women exercising leadership in the New Testament. He downplays Phoebe, sidelines Junia, completely ignores Priscilla and Old Testament authority figures such as Deborah and Huldah. This is in order to argue that, just as we no longer feel bound by an anti-women-in-ministry stance, we should no longer have to pay heed to restrictive boundaries regarding sex. This verges on the dishonest as he wouldn’t treat other parts of Scripture that way – let alone the ones relating to homosexuality. Anyone assuming Paul was a misogynist who we should rightly ignore as a dinosaur would have no correction from Chalke’s perspective.  Chalke needs to do some more study on 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 because, given the other Pauline references to women leading, prophesying, teaching and evangelising it is decidedly unclear on the surface what Paul is exactly saying. Some good exegetical work has been done demonstrating that Paul is more likely to have been forbidding women from exercising a very unpleasant and manipulative domineering over men akin to some aspects of pagan religion, rather than orderly, Christ-like, servant-hearted authority.

What makes the gay debate so different from the debate about women’s roles is that there is some good biblical evidence counteracting the seemingly restrictive texts. In relation to homosexuality, as Chalke concedes, there is absolutely no positive material whatsoever. It is not true that to be ‘liberal’ over ‘women’ is necessarily to be ‘liberal’ over the gay issue. As my brother Stephen Kuhrt has pointed out, appreciation of women’s ministry is partly based on the enrichment gender complementarity  brings, a fact which underpins heterosexual union.

The Inclusion Imperative

Chalke follows other revisionists in basing his inclusive approach on the widespread assumption that some people are ontologically ‘gay’ and the principle of loving inclusion should be determinative if we are to ‘love our gay neighbour as ourselves’. For him we cannot love a gay person unless we accept, affirm, and indeed facilitate their desire to be in a ‘stable’, ‘monogamous’ sexual relationship with someone of the same gender. Presumably we can though still be loving towards gay people without accepting or welcoming promiscuous behaviour, experimentation or prostitution.

Chalke doesn’t engage at all with the view that disciples of Christ cannot defiantly and unrepentantly persist in identifying themselves as belonging to a class or people who are defined by behaviour which is sinful. We do not and should not welcome into intimate fellowship or leadership gossips, slanderers, God-haters, heartless, faithless, senseless people as gossips, slanderers, God-haters, heartless, faithless, senseless people. Repentance includes a choice to embrace a new identity in Christ. Doubtless we all struggle at times with putting to death our desires to gossip, slander, hate God, etc and people will struggle to put to death their desires for sinful sexual behaviour. Everyone should be loved, supported, disciplined and helped to lead a new life in Christ. It would be bizarre if a ‘gossip’ claimed that they should not be challenged because ‘gossips’ should be ‘included’ and not rejected, stigmatised or denied the opportunity to ‘be themselves’. In the same way ‘gay’ people cannot enter intimate fellowship or leadership within the church as ‘gay’ if that means they trumpet their right to flout the clear teaching of Scripture.

Pastoral Necessity

Chalke urges a re-think by Evangelicals because of the damage he sees being done to those he sees as being excluded, stigmatised and rejected. He feels that a negative stance toward homosexual practice inevitably means terrible suffering for gay people who thereby become estranged from the church and often suicidal. He says it is ‘anti-gay stigma’ that causes most of the health problems for gay people, rather than anything unhealthy to do with homosexual practices. As example of pastoral damage done he cites the case of a youth leader trying to exorcise a demon of homosexuality form a vulnerable young person and of instances he knows of gay people being denied ministry roles, communion, church membership or adult baptism.

At this point I will do as much as I can within a written paper to get across where I am coming from in pastoral terms. First, I know and like and have known and liked several gay people (including people I have had pastoral responsibility for). Some self-identify as ‘gay’ and others, through a mature Christian understanding, do not label themselves as gay although others certainly would label them as such, as they admit they experience same sex sexual attraction. I have had in-depth conversations with and read books and articles by such people, both Christian and non-Christian. Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree that our foremost duty towards gay people is to love them. (What love really means is where I differ from Chalke). Thirdly, I recognise much opposition to the gay movement in the past and today does not reflect deep Christian understanding or real knowledge and sympathy. Some attitudes seem akin to racism or sneering distaste. Committed Christians have also made grievous mistakes in treating homosexuality as a simple ‘deliverance’ issue and being hypocritical and judgmental when they should have been compassionate and supportive to people struggling to come to terms with their sense of orientation. Gay people have a God-given need for intimacy and it is not good for any man to be alone. They have been and still are failed by churches that offer no real Gospel, no healing and no real community. Some aspects of civil partnerships I agree with (although the way the legislation was put together made it way too close a stepping stone to re-defining marriage).

However, to go back to how we love our ‘gay neighbour’. It is not loving to commend a way of life as blessed which God has cursed. It is not loving to obscure the clear scriptural guidance to young people (who need clear boundaries) about the place of sex. It is not loving to promote behaviour that has inherent and manifest health risks.  Chalke’s claim that it is stigma rather than behaviour which causes most of the health problems is staggering. It is not loving to concede that ‘experimentation’ is condemned in Scripture but to hold out gay couplings as options for young people. This is pastoral naivety. If homosexuality is promoted experimentation will of course increase, as young people are encouraged to ‘experiment’ in order to ‘explore’ their sexuality. Are they straight, gay, bi, transgender, poly-sexual or should they just do whatever feels good at the time? The range of options grows and grows. It is not loving to promote an agenda which will destroy what remains of the true concept of marriage and change an institution designed by God for the good of the whole community, especially children, into another selfish manifestation of individual bourgeois choice.

Chalke claims that he is not entering the gay marriage debate. But everything about his intervention, from the timing of it to the arguments and the tone he uses, supports the government in its proposals to redefine marriage. If honouring, supporting, blessing and facilitating gay unions is an inclusion imperative and a pastoral necessity about which scripture is permissive, then this must mean hearty affirmation of ‘same sex marriage’. Chalke cannot pretend otherwise. I feel a huge sadness that a high profile Christian (who has done and I’m sure is still doing so much good and inspiring work for the Kingdom) appears to have allowed himself in this area to be conformed to the pattern of this world. I sense with grim foreboding that this year will bring much strife and disunity to the church.


Martin Kuhrt is Vicar of the Church of the Holy Spirit, Bedgrove, Aylesbury

 


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Forum Posts About This Article:


 Posted by: Dan  Tuesday 12 February 2013 - 11:03pm
"The House of commons has responded to Chalke and to us all with 400 Ayes, 175 Noes." Yes, and now we know why: http://www.ukip.org/content/latest-news/2938-eu-proposal-is-behind-samesex-marriage-furore A pity it didn't come to light soon enough to be taken up in the Commons debate last Tuesday; but it could now be an important factor in ensuring the Lords kill it off.
 Posted by: Ambrose StJohn redivivus  Tuesday 5 February 2013 - 09:15pm
The House of commons has responded to Chalke and to us all with 400 Ayes, 175 Noes.   It's coming to a Town Hall, a church, a meeting house, a gospel hall, near you
 Posted by: Blair  Saturday 2 February 2013 - 12:31am
  Hello again all,   Daniel, welcome – I like your style and way of raising what could be called reasonable doubts. I think that enough reasonable doubts can be raised about the traditional view, to open a way for suggesting that committed same-sex sexual relationships are acceptable for Christians. As a gay Christian, maybe there’s something of ‘I would say that wouldn’t I’… but I too hope my thinking is valid.   I also wonder if your penultimate paragraph has echoes for others? My wondering is whether folk have started to observe, in same-sex couples they know, a quality of love akin to straight marriages, their own or others’ – and in so observing, whether it’s begun to dawn that the traditional position doesn’t cash out. For if the traditional position is true, same-sex sex cannot be an act of love in any circumstance, so a same-sex relationship cannot at heart be loving…. But if real love is discerned in such a relationship…   Bowman, thank you for such a well-told story about the “unspeakably conservative Lutheran pastor”. But I was struck by your phrase “the gift of something much better than just being right”. I suspect “just being right” is all I’m aspiring to, much of the time, and especially on here. There are other things I’d like to hear your thoughts on, Martin, like the last paragraph of my post of 27 Jan and whether there is a valid parallel with the question of usury… but if that’s simply about me being right, what good is it? Am not sure where this takes me, and in other moments I still want to bang the table, and worse…   In friendship, Blair
 Posted by: djr  Thursday 31 January 2013 - 07:42pm
I'm posting with a little bit of trepidation - a first post on this forum, and on such a difficult topic.  Like a few others on this thread, I've been trying to think through my position on "That Topic" over the last year or so, trying to read as much as I have had time for, and ponder as much as I am able.  My position has shifted a little, as a result, but is still a bit fuzzy.  So, I've been reading this thread with interest - some of it is a little beyond me, and I can't keep all of it in my head at once, but I thought maybe it was worth adding my own voice and thoughts, which might be another angle on Steve Chalke's postion. I'm sorry, I can't give my thoughts on all the seven pages of posts so far, there are too many.# <br> (I'm also led to understand that paragraphs are difficult to attain to).# <br> I don't think it is too much of a charicature to say that an "Evangelical" position is to start with scripture, figure out what it is saying (paying attention to Greek words, culture, history etc.) and only then decide how to apply it in our own context. So, when (for example) Martin asks for a scriptural argument, I think this is the sort of thing he has in mind - a proof from scripture.  I don't think such a proof exists, in fact, for either extreme position.  I'm a scientist by training, and I know what proof looks like, with a nice QED at the end. On this topic, it can't be done - there are six texts, but a whole clamour of voices and interpretations.# <br> I know that the balance of scholarly opinion is towards the more traditional reading. But I have found myself asking, over the last year, whether there are other readings that do justice to the texts.  Is there a chance these other readings are right, or at least plausible?  And, if there is a chance, what then?  We make decisions every day on uncertain data, and on the balance of probabilities. Those probabilities shift, depending on what data we allow ourselves to include - should we allow other data: the rest of the Bible, our experience, and the pastoral problems we want to address, affect our decisions on a good reading of the immediately relevant texts?# <br> So, is there a chance that Genesis shouldn't be used to dictate what sorts of relationships are valid? Yes, there is a chance (and more than a chance - for sure it celebrates the union of man and wife, but does it really preclude everything else?) Is it possible that the relevant commands in Leviticus should be discarded, along with the food laws? Yes, there is a chance.  There are not so many good classification schemes for dividing up the laws into ones we should keep, and ones we should not - I'm not sure I can easily tell which laws are moral, which ones are ritual, and which ones are designed to keep the nation special, which ones relate to regulation of community life, which ones are for individual purity.   Is it possible that Paul's main criticism in Romans has to do with a society that ritualised and encouraged licentious, lust-driven behaviour, a society where anything goes? Is it possible that he is not addressing stable, lust-free, same-sex relationships?  Yes, on reading, re-reading, and reading it again, it seems to me this is possible. # <br> Maybe the balance of probability, looking at scripture alone, remains in favour of the traditional reading.  But when I look at the pastoral problem, and the wider sweep of scripture, I have to wonder - I really do.  Because the problem is precisely that people are not blank sheets with genitalia stuck on - if that were the case, it would be easy.  Real people have real feelings. Some people are, for whatever reason, naturally attracted to people of the same sex, and nothing will change that attraction for some of them.# <br> I find myself asking - suppose one man meets another in church, and - oh no - it is clear for them that one likes the other, and the feeling is reciprocated. Is this love? they ask themselves.  What am I to tell them? That celibacy is the only option? Could I truly tell this to myself? I may as well tell them to run away - as far as possible - from each other, and thus from the church, because any other path leads to temptation and pain.# <br> So, is it valid for me to allow such questions and thoughts affect my reading of scripture? Can I use them to affect my balance of probabilities? Or is this totally off-limits?  Perhaps this is the sort of thought process that led to changes of opinion on slavery and women in ministry - someone begining to ask: it seems unlikely, but what if we look at it this way? Daniel  
 Posted by: Bowman  Wednesday 30 January 2013 - 08:24am
David B, Ambrose, Martin Kuhrt, Origen Adam-- Ambrose's video reminds me that early in the AIDS epidemic, the gay sons of a Southern town I know well came home from the big cities to die. Above the high street, a row of golden crosses shone atop their tall white steeples, each rising from the church of another faith, and all of them nestled in groves of mature trees. Like veterans of some strange war they were brought back to homes they had not seen in years, where the good people never said the word "sex" out loud; they spelt it with a whisper. The reverend clergy there mostly responded to the crisis without alarm, duly reading official denominational statements from time to time, sometimes insinuating a prayer for families with unmentioned troubles, and leading discreet funerals when asked. In fairness, even that was bold to many in that lovely but uncurious settlement of white picket fences that could have inspired Kierkegaard's Attack Upon Christendom. So as many that tiny world woke up all at once to whole lifetimes of rejection and agony, few of them thought to mention this to the men in black. Instead, rumours drew the patients and families to one unspeakably conservative Lutheran pastor of a church without a white steeple who was himself sort of new to the place, and who did most of the hard things for which there are no good directions-- baptised and anointed the untouchable, stayed by beds of the dying, reconciled estranged families, comforted grieving survivors, met the scorn and fear of the uninvolved, prayed with terrified young men still in the closet, and heard about lots and lots and lots of shame from people who did not know what to do with it all. I can say without offense that he had "all the wrong ideas," as most people then did. But he also had all the right virtues, along with an idea that the love of Christ for those "simul just et peccator" was the only torch to bring to that darkness. We become Christians like him when we learn to walk by faith and not only by sight. # My interactions on this issue over the past few decades have made me a firm (Carl) Rogerian-- the space to be fully oneself is the most powerful catalyst for change. (Consciences under constant attack attack attack do not evolve to new understanding or lead visionary change, they just defend defend defend. Activate the amygdala, and you activate the amygdala. What good does that do?) On the other hand, the openness of respectful dialogue lets people see and become much more. And consciences that leave comfort behind and answer the unexpected, help themselves and others to grow more into the mind of Christ. Because they take risks, they cannot be entirely right, but they deserve our gratitude and support just the same for the gift of something much better than just being right. I am glad that Martin Kuhrt has given us so much of his thought and time, and as they would say in that sunny little town that has suffered and healed--and maybe learned-- so much, "I hope that Martin won't be so scarce!" Please write again.
 Posted by: Origen Adam  Tuesday 29 January 2013 - 03:41pm
@MK It's bizarre that you accuse me of blaspheming the Holy Spirit when you are guilty of the same in your persecution of gay christians! In criticising MacFarlane, I'm merely following the example of Jesus who called the religious bigots of his day all sorts insulting names :) You should try looking at the gay forums on the internet where MacFarlane, catholic priests and that awful Ladele woman are held up as examples of a Church which hates gays. Me and others have the massive task of trying to turn back the tide and show that there are christians who are inclusive. However, moving on, I think David has raised some good questions on how we deal with gay christians in our midst. In my own life I have been excommunicated from one church for not getting healed quickly enough: they said I was a bad example to other homosexual strugglers as I hadn't become straight despite all their fervent prayers! Latterly I was told I was 'welcome' in my own church by the new vicar, but not welcome to be in any position of leadership. Thankfully I'm now at Oasis where gay people are completely included and are even on the leadership team! This really does need to become a secondary issue, and a matter of personal conscience. It just will not do to continue to write negative articles about gay people, and exclude us and demean us at every turn. We need to be accepted in your churches as equals as we work together to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. As you say, there are humongous problems in our world that we can bring the love of Christ into: putting all your energy into destroying the faith of gay christians (who are a fraction of the population) is just really strange.
 Posted by: MK  Tuesday 29 January 2013 - 11:50am
User 2383, I don't think God wants anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance and salvation through the saving work of Christ. Jesus did teach that we can have a close, even intimate relationship with God as Father, but only by being in Christ. We are not naturally sons of God because of our sin, which as God warned Adam, would result in death. We only have the right to be called children of God if we are in Christ. The reason I believe the Old Testament is because Jesus believed it and Jesus completely endorsed it as a true relevation of the Father. The Old Testament  God is the same as the New Testament God. He is 'gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love'. His grace and patience, both with the covenanted but continually idolatrous Israelites and the pagan nations with ther horrific practices does not mean he is not also a holy God, who cannot compromise with evil, and who does eventually bring judgment. With his children, (those who respond to him in faith) the Father disciplines his children as a loving Father would, but guides them towards salvation But with those that refuse to repent, the arrogant, the dishonest, the sexually immoral, the greedy and cruel are under the judgment of God. If you claim to follow Jesus re-read the Gospels and look at all the judgment words that come from the mouth of our Lord. They make sobering reading. The New Testament is as severe as the Old. Many people think that God is nasty and angry in the Old Testament and then undertook someting like an anger management course and reformed himself into a nicer, more relaxed, inclusive God in the New, and this process is continuing today. But this is simply not true. There is grace and judgment in the Old, and grace and judgment in the New. God still speaks today and for those who are listening, the Word of Christ is still two-edged. We are still living in a time of grace but judgment is coming. Repent, while there is still time. One of the reasons, I think, why gay people feel (rightly) aggrieved is that, partly for political reasons, so much attention and moral debate is focussed on them. But I would imagine at least  95% of the sexual sin that afflicts the world (my own sin included) is committed by 'straight' people. Committed, truly bible believing Christians are aware of how far our society falls below God's standards. There is so much promiscuity, adultery, abuse, pornography, rape, traffikking. (Traffikking is a bigger business than Microsoft). It is unsurprising that marriage is now seen as a nebulous emotional commitment because heterosexuals have already done the sex thing and often had children and marriage is no longer the accepted context for this. I completely understand why gay people think same sex marriage should be an option for them, because it is an  'option' (and, sadly, considered only an 'option') for heterosexual couples. I think that many gay people are nearer the kingdom of heaven, than unrepentant, complacent, God-rejecting heterosexuals, just as Jesus said the prostitutes and tax-collectors were nearer to the kingdom than the self-righteous. However, Jesus did call tax collectors and prostitutes to repentance and new life and never condoned sin. I try to pastorally combine a welcome to all -  single people with porn addiction, unmarried couples living together, gay couples, married men with secret fetishes, respectable middle class couples fiddling their expenses claims, with the discipleship challenge of truly following Jesus. We should welcome everybody, but not compromise on what is good and holy and what is bad and sinful. You must not make your own image of God, which is idolatry. There is a strong spirit of idolatry and self worship today regarding sex. We cannot be united with Christ and idols. Be careful what you say about Gary MacFarlane because I think you are in danger of mocking and persecuting a man full of the Holy Spirit. He is man who has given his life to helping couples in their relationships. He willing to counsel gay couples about non-sexual aspects of their relationships. In an optional training course on sex therapy he mentioned that he would have conscientious issues with advising same sex couples on how they could 'improve' their bedroom acts, and for this he was hounded out of his Relate job. Take care you do not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. If you are a Christian then you are describing a persecuted Christian brother as 'an outright bigot' and  a 'shocking advert' for Christianity.
 Posted by: David B  Tuesday 29 January 2013 - 01:05am
Is a note of despair entering this thread about finding a response to Steve Chalke's change of mind about the approach he has been taking in his church?   Those wishing to insist on differing fixed positions about relevant Biblical passages will continue to disagree about those positions.  I suggest however that they might offer a fully considered view on how their positions apply to regular attenders of church activities who profess faith in Christ and are partners of the same gender. Those who seek a rethought theology of homosexuality do not have the time, do they?  We have to act now with as coherent a consensus about the will of God in Christ for his followers as we can attain.  We cannot wait on a full understandng of same-sex attraction either: there may always be large room for disagreement about where it comes from and where it's going to, especially as unique experiences and self-concept have to be a large part of the story. We need - and on the above account, all we can expect to have is - a rough and ready framework within which to address a new public situation with existing institutions of the church and of the state.  Here is one such suggestion.  A couple living together, or indeed being an 'item', is a public matter. As such, the primary issues are more likely to be moral.  What they do indoors is a private matter, perhaps more likely to involve the extra that God expects of the faithful. Pastors or leaders' teams live with such distinctions for majority couples of opposite gender when they come privately for help, and the people in public can trust the pastor's strategy, depending on adequate communication between leaders and people.  What has to be different in strategy for minority couples of the same gender, from the whole of the Bible as best we understand it so far and from what's available in the churches and in wider society at present?  The rest is down to the informal relationships among the individuals and households in that church - a substantial proportion of whom are not couples, never forget.
 Posted by: Ambrose StJohn redivivus  Monday 28 January 2013 - 08:16pm
Another response in a different medium - more enactment in the tradition of Ezekiel, perhaps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QbtBBcyEjbY
 Posted by: Deleted user 2383  Monday 28 January 2013 - 06:19pm
@MartinKhurt “We all deserved the death penalty for our sins” I really struggle to understand this view of God! I just don't think it's healthy to think that God wants to exact the “death penalty” for our sins. “Mistakes can be made, both in copying and translation.” Ah, are you saying that we do not have the original 'Word of God'?? Maybe we might agree on something after all :) “Does that mean I want the death penalty today for sodomy? No, it doesn't.” But if I had lived a few thousand years ago then you would have had me killed! I think that Samuel did think that God wanted to exact genocide on the Amalekites, but he got it wrong 'cos God isn't like that and He reveals that He isn't like that when Jesus says he is like a Dad. What sort of Dad wants to give us the death penalty?? “Your posts do show quite a gulf between what you and I believe about the bible and this is bound to have an impact on what we believe and seek to practice.” I must say that I'm quite happy with this gulf :) “This is a very serious matter because if gravely damages the authority of scripture” I'm more happy to see Jesus as the Word of God rather than the ramblings of the uneducated. But I do think that Scriptures are useful for teaching and training in righteousness etc. “If bad things are attributed to a good God these false passages should be ripped from the pages of scripture to prevent people being mis-led as to the character of God” Hmm, maybe. But I'd rather leave them there as they show how people's understanding of God has changed throughout history: in the OT people thought God a tyrant who needed to be appeased, Jesus reveals more of what He is really like, and 2000 years later He is still revealing Himself. I don't think He stopped speaking 2000 years ago, or AD 367 whenever it was! For me, there is a case for saying that some of what is recorded in the Bible is absolutely wrong! I think that Martin Khurt falls into the trap of trying to justify slavery instead of calling it evil. There really is no need to try and apologise on behalf of God for the shocking things in the Bible if one doesn't believe that God is like that. And saying that God did really want to exact death on everyone makes Dawkins famous quote about God true! “What has happened to Gary Macfarlane, the Relate counsellor hounded out of his job, for his courteous, respectful loving and sincere commitment to Christ” Hmm, you really do see the world differently to me. I think Macfarlane is an outright bigot, a shocking advert for Christianity. How you see him as loving and committed to Christ is simply beyond me. He is more like the other guy! “I think you need to realise that some people take doctrinal and ethical stances out of love for the Lord and a deep desire for people to be faithful to him and help others to know him better too and to live fully human, flourishing lives.” If you have this belief, then why can't you see the same qualities in your opponents? It really is quite odd that you claim the higher ground for yourself and your fellows but do not see it in others! My first post was my knee-jerk response to Martin's article, which in turn seemed to be a knee-jerk response to Steve's. I genuinely don't believe this was written in the spirit that Steve would have us discuss things. And I stand by my assertion that it will just not do to classify gay people as part of the “judgement on the whole of godless society” and our sexuality a “prominent feature in a spiralling down into general depravity.” Nor will it do to say that God has “cursed” our way of life. There are plenty of gay christians who are active in churches all over the world who are doing good works and are full of the fruit of the Spirit. Saying God somehow curses our lives is completely reprehensible! @Ian Paul “I'm afraid that on 1 Timothy 2 your comments are way off the mark” I disagree. I've read much of the argument over the years, but I much prefer the plain, obvious meaning of Scriptures rather than the desperate tortuous intricacies of evangelical revisionists. The Bible is against homosexuality, it is against women in authority, it is pro-slavery etc. But that is because the authors didn't know better. Far better to jettison their prejudices than to try and pretend their writings don't mean what they plainly say! @Tom “Presumably we are going to expect the same of celibate gay courting couples? How many of those are there, incidentally?” I must say that I found this remark quite annoying! I do know of one couple actually. And I suggest that they have found it easier since homosexuality has been accepted in parts of society and the church. In the bad old days gay men were married to women and sought out furtive encounters in public toilets. As society's prejudice has lessened so it has become more possible to behave according to one's conscience. I think it is only with complete emancipation that there will be more “celibate gay courting couples.” @Bowman “But I worry that the absence of gay voices (among others) in ordinary threads is making our good faith conversations here worse than unreal, and perpetuating the very division and isolation that needs to end, no matter what one thinks about the Six.” The problem for me is that I only come here when some outrageous article (published by Fulcrum pertaining to me and those that I love) finds its way to my inbox despite my pleas to be removed from their mailing list! Consequently I find myself having to deal with the constant homophobia that Fulcrum puts out, and it's very wearing. Why can't they publish less from the Khurt stable and more from authors with differing views for example? Then I might want to come here more often...
 Posted by: Roger Hurding  Monday 28 January 2013 - 05:01pm
I greatly appreciate the quality of debate on this thread for its honesty and careful listening to one another. On a different tack to the discussion on the Hebrew and LXX texts, Richard Rohr has written an excellent piece which adopts a more ontological approach to gender and, not least, to homosexuality.  Broadly, Rohr argues that, as we mature in Christ, our gender differences lessen as we move toward unity 'in him'.  This is not so much to question the value of our gendered lives as to point to a deeper humanity that is common to all and is deeply realized in Christ.  Rohr writes, 'The True Self, who we objectively are in God, is prior and superior to any issues of gender, culture or sexuality, which are all "accidental" to one's foundational core as a child of God.  This is why it is pure heresy to call a transgendered, gay or lesbian person "intrinsically disordered."  (The intrinsic foundation of the human person is given by God and untouchable by an human intervention whatsoever.)  Gender is a combination of biology, psychology and personal history, which are all good and necessary entrance points to the temple, but spirituality is learning how to live in the temple itself (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).  What makes spirituality precisely "spiritual" is that it connects us with the Core and the Center, not just the circumference; with the essence and not just the accidents.' I warmly recomment Rohr's article, 'God, Gender and Spirituality' at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fr-richard-rohr/gender-god-and-spirituality_b_1624932.html  I have commented more fully on this on the thread, 'Contemplation: a Journey of Discovery?'
 Posted by: Ambrose StJohn redivivus  Monday 28 January 2013 - 01:56pm
Thank you for your sensitive response Bowman. I'll try to get back further.  I have  real problem reading a lot of long posts on here which have no paragraphs or other forms of breaking up the black - it's literally very very hard for me to read.  Converting it  all from text to voice is also difficult.   I know it is or can be hard on here to have one's paragraphs kept - they can get lost. I think it's to do with the mechanics of the website -but I dunno what are the right words in computerese !  All the best, Ambrose.
 Posted by: DavidR  Monday 28 January 2013 - 08:56am
Martin, Thank you for your careful responses to me. I am in no doubt as to the integrity or your faith and the care with which you seek to read and interpret scripture. Thank you for the challenge that is. Two brief further responses if I may, that I think stay close to the spirt of this thread: 'What I cannot accept as faithful is rejection of clear texts in which the narrator declares that God said such and such or did such and such or felt such and such. We can debate what God meant but if we are still unsure whether he did do or say the things reported I do not see how we can have confidence in the bible as revelatory.' This is in danger of becoming "my way (eg 'evangelical') or the highway" again - or the low way presumably. To question/probe/wrestle the meaning of a text is not to reject it. With regard to the Samuel saga I am not convinced it is as simple as 'yes we can question when Samuel claims the words of God in his own mouth, but when the narrator records it direct it must be literal verbatum record of God's Word and will'. I am still thinking this through. The Samuel narrative is also very subtle on quite where and when Yahweh is explicitely present and when he is apparently absent, when he is silent and when he speaks. Can you see that your statement above presupposes this is a certain kind of history record, a certain kind of truth telling?  What if it is not?  Secondly, I do want to challenge your summary labelling of James Allison as a 'gay activist'. He is not. He is a brother in Christ and a very gifted theologian and bible teacher. Yes he is also gay - and has paid a high price for this within the church. Bowman has rightly noted how powerful our stories are for how we hear texts and other voices. I was not at that conference but if he is especially sensitive to how the more judging/wrathful/excluding texts have been used against those already most marginalised by the church it is with very good reason.  And I don't think you have to agree with his theology to hear the challenge of that.   
 Posted by: Bowman  Sunday 27 January 2013 - 10:27pm
Blair-- Excellent post. Sorry to frustrate, of course. I don't see a double standard; I see discussions at different levels of ripeness for decision. # Ian Paul was studying 1 Timothy 2 anyway, but here in the village the verse did not get the closer look it has recently received until villagers first spent months tenaciously clarifying the story about St Paul's overall view of women, and then reconsidered Tom Wright's work on 1 Timothy 2. This preparation was necessary here because, before that, many villagers had naively treated 1 Timothy 2 like those messages in Chinese fortune cookies, and just reading the verse very, very carefully in English and Greek did not in itself restore the context or stabilise the meaning as far as that is possible. To see how poorly the "scripture cookie" approach works, see last year's often toxic threads on That Topic. # We are still not all that ready for the Six, or for other texts that we should relate to them. We are all interested in their philological features, of course-- thank you for posting on that-- and most of us are now beginning to grapple with larger stories here, but no single coordinating story has been very helpful yet. New voices rightly speak up to jump start this conversation with new ideas. # Yes, among those ideas should be some notion of what one might mean by "homosexuality," "same sex attraction," etc. For some arguments, empirical questions matter-- eg Is SSA dimensional or categorical? For others, a different sort of reading may help-- eg Do St Paul's comments on "it" oppose "it" for itself, or only as part of a larger cultural system? # These discussions often remind me of the two poles of the Christian debate on just war theory. To some, the original Christian pacifism was just abstention from pagan Roman war, and rightly faded away with paganism itself. War is horrid to Christians, but not forbidden to Christians in extreme circumstances. To others, that pacifism was and is "the Lamb's war" against principalities and powers in this aeon, and death is preferable to violence. The question is-- should we treat acts of SSA and acts of war differently? # Most of us, I suspect, balance the need for at least a provisional way to respond to a human emergency with integrity as Christians-- the secular narratives alone do not do that-- with the sober recognition that we are not yet close to a position that actually solves all the "pastoral and practical" problems in a faithful, integrated way. This was inevitably going to be a more complex problem than just "OWE-- yes or no?"
 Posted by: David B  Sunday 27 January 2013 - 07:58pm
Bowman, thank you for your clarification (23 Jan 5pm) regarding my distinction between immorality and sacrilege.   Further note that I did not say the attention to Scripture in this thread was an "illogical" response to Steve Chalke's pastoral challenge.  On the contrary, I asked for discussion of existing pastoral strategies with their biblical bases. Subsequent discussion of Lev 18:22 opens up an illustration.  If that verse refers soley to anal intercourse between men, we should ask what is sacriligious about it.  In the culture of Leviticus, it could have been regarded it as disgusting.  (The ancient Greeks thought it was demeaning and so used the thighs.)  That is not the point.  Why does God forbid it (if that's what this passage may well mean)?  The obvious thought is that God created that part of the body for another purpose.  (I am NOT invoking any worked out theology of Natural Law: we are interpreting Scripture.)   If that's the principle behind Lev 18:22 (and indeed some other 'ceremonial law'), there are considerable ramifications. What about treatment of a wife in the same way?  Is the mouth 'misused' for 'penetrative intercourse'?  It was suggested earlier in this thread that Anglican evangelicals' sudden conversion to contraception lacked considrered principle - another 'pastoral emergency' not handled well enough? - What if love of God with all that we are prohibits 'misuse' of the woman's birth passage?!  (My come-back on that is  consideration of ALL that God made men and women for!! - which takes us straight back to scriptural bases for celibacy.)
 Posted by: MK  Sunday 27 January 2013 - 06:04pm
David, Thanks for your latest post and for taking the trouble to engage at length on biblical authority and reliability. I do hear what you say about the danger of appearing over defensive about scriptural authority. I know debate has oten been stifled by authoritarian insistence on certain interpretations. I am no crude literalist in that I certainly recognise the range of biblical literature and the importance of being sensitive to the genre, the context and and the benefits of the various forms of biblical criticism. In relation to Samuel, I didn't word my argument very well a couple of posts back. I didn't mean to say that Samuel, simply by being Samuel was always God's mouthpiece. What I should have said, was that where the text clearly endorses Samuel's words as being from Yahweh (because, for example, later words or deeds direct from God confirm them) then we should see them as trustworthy. But, as I said, it is always possible to make a case for questioning whether what comes out of the mouth of a biblical character (even a respected prophet like Samuel or Moses) when it is attributed to God (let alone when it is not) is actually the divine will. What I cannot accept as faithful is rejection of clear texts in which the narrator declares that God said such and such or did such and such or felt such and such. We can debate what God meant but if we are still unsure whether he did do or say the things reported I do not see how we can have confidence in the bible as revelatory.  In my last diocese I was present at a plenary conference where a gay activist (James Alison) was invited to be a keynote speaker and he poured scorn on the reliability of the scriptures and said that all mentions of God's wrath needed to be deconstructed to show they were examples of targetted hate against minorities. The attraction of Alison's theology of the bible are obvious for those who don't like the textual revelation of God and have no time for biblical doctrines such as sin, judgment, atonement and salvation through Christ alone. Thankyou Blair for your post and I had no difficulties with your tone!  I haven't heard the argument that Leviticus 18 v22 is just about prohibiting two men from using a woman's bed, but you seem to have enough Hebrew knowledge to counter that one. But as I said, I think we should listen to arguments about Hebrew or Greek translation. It was the original text that was inspired. Mistakes can be made, both in copying and translation. I think the translation of 1 Tim 2 v12 in most bibles is poor - particularly the translation of 'authentein' as 'authority'. It seems that something of a cultural conspiracy to deny women the exercise of godly, servant authority has affected the translation down through the years. This verse, respected scholars believe, should say something like"I forbid a woman to teach or practice the domination of men" (the Greek word authentein is used nowhere else in Scripture to mean authority - and there is good evidence it meant something thoroughly nasty - religious and sexual mind control such as practiced by the priestess prostitutes of Ephesus. If that verse does forbid any teaching authority authority for women it would seem more like Talebanic Islam that New Testament Christianity. It would also be inconstent with the recognition given to Priscilla's teaching role over Apollos, and the Divine authoity give to Deborah and Huldah in the Old Testament. So on textual grounds and coherence with the rest of Scripture, and reason, there is good evidence for questioning the translation. If anyone can provide a coherent case for a better translation of the texts about homosexual behaviour then I will be all ears. But the evidence for this has just not been shown, as far as I can see. Someone asked how I understand Leviticus 20 v13 and whether I de-construct it at all. First, Lev 20v1 claims that this is the Lord directly speaking to Moses. My faith in Jesus means that I follow Jesus'attitude to the Old Testament. Jesus treated it as the inspired word of the Father. He used the concepts of "it is written" and "God says" interchangeably. Therefore I have to accept that God did say the things recorded in chapter 20 to Moses. Does that mean I want the death penalty today for sodomy? No, it doesn't. But it does mean I accept God gave that law then for the people of Israel who were called to live under the covenant and obey God's laws. We are under a new covenant now. We all deserved the death penalty for our sins but Christ has been put to death on our behalf and in him is the fulfilment of the Law. Thus we are not obliged to enshrine in English law the Mosaic law which is a good thing because it is better to live under grace in Christ. Does the Old Testament then have any relevance? Yes it does. It records the principles underlying the sacrifical system which has some relevance to the way we see Christ's sacrifice for us and our duty to be holy and set apart from the world. It provides edifying material on the grace and truth of Yahweh, and it gives insight into the ethical standards God wishes to see in society. Some of the things we still today enforce through the criminal law (don't commit murder, theft, perjury etc). Other things we see as sub Christian and immoral eventhough there is no criminal sanction (eg adultery, fornication). Lev 20 v13 is not therefore directly applicable as to whether sodomy should be a criminal offence or if it is, what the punishment should be, but it does indicate that the practice is sinful and not what God wants because the context is clearly the morality of certain behaviours.
 Posted by: Richard W  Sunday 27 January 2013 - 12:26pm
DavidR Thank you for your recent posts, especially this last one. I was steeped in evangelical Christianity from birth. After some time at university I realised that I could no longer go along with dogmatically pinning my life on the EA basis of faith. Over the years I've reassembled my faith, and its fair to say that if you cut me open you would not find "evangelical" running through me like a stick of rock, but the Bible has confirmed its trustworthiness in often surprising ways. If the bible is true then we need to work that out in our lives. In many ways I envy those who seem to be able to just believe as their underlying mode of operation, but that didn't get me very far.  
 Posted by: Blair  Sunday 27 January 2013 - 03:02am
  Hello all,   Am struggling a bit with this post – I fear I’ll get the tone (and perhaps content too) wrong. I’m not sure whether what I’d like to say will help – but maybe I can ask fellow villagers (as Bowman would call us) to bear with me a little.   Ambrose St J – to my knowledge it isn’t the case that the Hebrew of Leviticus 18:22 means “with a male you shall not lie down in a woman’s bed”. Drawing on the work of Gareth Moore OP and Rabbi Steven Greenberg, a good literal translation of “v’et zakhar lo tishkav mishkeve ishah, toevah hi” is “and with a male you shall not lie the lyings of a woman; it is abhorrent”. Greenberg notes that a parallel phrase appears in Numbers (31:18 and 35) – “mishkav zakhar”, the lyings of a male. If the lyings of a male is what a woman experiences in intercourse, being penetrated, then the lyings of a woman, ‘mishkeve ishah’ “would mean what a man experiences in intercourse with a woman, that is, the engulfment of the penis”, says Greenberg. So the text is a prohibition of (only of) penetrative sex between men.   That said, perhaps what’s important about your post is that it brings translation and close reading of texts to the fore. Turning to NT texts for a moment it’s notable that Biblical translations vary widely in their renderings of ‘arsenokoitai’ and ‘malakoi’. That alone might give us pause before we assert that the meanings of the texts are clear – and whatever exactly arsenokoitai and malakoi mean, no women were involved. So it’s inaccurate to say of any of the Six Texts, Romans 1 excepted, that they address homosexuality – they speak of intercourse between men in Leviticus, and perhaps the same thing in 1 Cor and 1 Tim. In most of the Six it is not homosexuality – not the sameness of the partners’ gender – that troubles the writers.   I’m not simply trying to be pedantic but rather to point to close readings of the texts, very inadequately I’ve no doubt. Bowman, you wrote on the 24th that “I was glad to see MK insist on more rigour” in Scriptural argument. But at the risk of simply flaunting my arrogance, I do not think that either Martin or Steve Chalke have used especially good or rigorous argument. I don’t see in either article, close readings of the Biblical texts held to ‘deal with’ homosexuality. It has been frustrating to me that neither you, Martin, nor Ian Paul have answered the challenge of how it is that you can apply “careful exegetical work” to texts about women’s ministry such as in 1Tim 2, whose meaning once seemed quite clear, yet not (seemingly, please correct me) do the same with the Six Texts. I’ve also not seen any explicit discussion of the other nub of the issue – the question of truth.   Martin, you mention this only in parenthesis I’d suggest: “(What love really means is where I differ from Chalke)”. For “what love really means” hinges (as you imply but don’t discuss) on what the true characterisation of homosexuality is. Is it a pathology, or even if maybe not that, sinful and / or distorted so that same-sex sex is wrong, always and everywhere? Or is it like heterosexuality in being, from however distorted a starting-place, capable of being healed and ordered so that, in some contexts, same-sex sex could be right and, like other-sex sex, part of a loving faithful relationship? It seems to me crucial that this be discussed, as so much hinges on it – but (I hope this is not simply uncharitable) neither you nor Steve Chalke discuss this question, how to approach it and with what criteria / framework, but simply assert or assume an answer one way or the other. If the former, then what you say under the sub-heading ‘Pastoral necessity’ is quite correct. But if the latter…   I hope for a truthful, merciful conversation about these things – but fear I’ve done little or nothing in this post to model that.   In friendship, Blair
 Posted by: Bowman  Saturday 26 January 2013 - 10:50pm
Our brains first scan others for threats, next attend to what they are doing, and last of all direct attention to any ideas they might be talking about. The first is automatic; the second involuntary; the third an act of will. If we even get to the third step, this will happen after the less conscious precaution has already been launched, so the way we scan for threats is very important. We mostly do this by matching persons to memories of good or evil past, interpreting those experiences with the pre-moral intuitions with which we were born. Rhetoricians knew all this in antiquity, of course, and today we just watch brains doing these things in functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI). Human nature is real, and we need to show some skill in dealing with it. # Martin Kuhrt (and at times Phil Almond, Ambrose, and others) want our hearing for positions that they have come to hold after some sustained inner struggle, and they want our hearing, in particular, because there are, or ought to be, some stories in our Christian minds that will disarm fear or anger at what they might say right from the start, enabling us to get to the third step above unburdened by those prejudices. Seeing any of these villagers as another X from one of those Christian stories, we should never think to connect them to our experience of less trusting contexts. # Alas, when we discuss topics that are obviously immensely painful for some participants, those stories need to be very robust indeed. Sometimes they are not-- we see the name on the screen, and before we read the post or article beside them, defensive measures launch themselves unbidden. When we find that our prejudices are overwhelming our hearing like that, we should step back from our arguments to review and rebuild those stories. (That was part of the point of Stephen's "Christmas Truce" last year.) We may find, of course, that we have been thinking of the wrong ones. # When I read essays and posts on That Topic, I find myself comparing some villagers on both sides of it to the Christian abolitionists and pacifists in my own family. Memory of the hard dilemmas of those who were, for Christ's sake, both abolitionists amidst plantation slavery and pacifists amid a savage war over slavery inclines my mind to sympathy for any who seek a quiet conscience but find that the scriptures irresistably inspire a counter-cultural stance. # Anyway, this story of wanting peace but being against the world for the sake of the Life of the world is surely the right story for hearing any Christian with a calm mind who finds that, nonetheless, an irresistable reading of the scriptures has sweeping consequences for society. And it is a bigger, more complicated, and vastly more humane story than the ones we tell each other about moralists compulsively whipping the unruly, hobbyists who might have worked crosswords but do the bible instead, or debaters out for argumentative conquests. On Those Topics, we should try to hear each other as Christians with challenging if sometimes opposing parts in a vast story in which we at least intend to follow Christ's banner amid battlefield confusion. # True, we do not always fit the stories to which, by God's providence, we belong. Indeed, we break hearts by missing our own stories whilst trying to live out other tales that distract and entice us. But metanoia is not living down to contagious but small-souled fables and rumours; it is returning to the plot, characters, and meaning in the stories to which we belong, recognising Him in them for the first time.
 Posted by: Ambrose StJohn redivivus  Friday 25 January 2013 - 06:35pm
Norman P and Mart Kuhrt.  Do you know that most English translations are just plain wrong ? The Hebrew does not mean what the KJ and most others say !   'And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is an abomination.'     This is the correct translation of Leviticus 18:22. It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman’s bed, for whatever reason. Culturally, a woman's bed was her own. Other than the woman herself, only her husband was permitted in her bed, and there were even restrictions on when he was allowed in there. Any other use of her bed would have been considered defilement. Other verses in the Law will help clarify the acceptable use of the woman's bed (Lev. 15)     Best matches for lev 18 22 hebrew     Leviticus 18:22. The translations of this verse found in most English. Bibles are not supported by the Hebrew text. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with...        Norman P amd Martin Kurht,   what do you make of Moses's grammatical error ? 'The word ᅯᅰ￐ hu means both he and it. It means it when applied to masculine nouns. But to’evah is a feminine noun, so Moses should have used the word ᅯ￙￐ hi, which means she and it. It means it when applied to feminine nouns.   So what does Moses' error do for us? It doesn't change the meaning, as we mentioned above. It still means it. But the significant thing is that the error has never been corrected. Why? Didn't anyone notice it? Of course they did. But the Jewish people consider the text of the Hebrew Bible so sacred, that they will not alter even simple grammatical errors. The Jewish people considered even the shapes of the letters of the alphabet to be holy. The most they could do about the error was point it out, without correcting it. They did this by using the vowel points for the correct word on top of the incorrect word: ᅯᄡᅰ￐ The resulting word is more or less unpronounceable, but serves to alert the reader to the error. (The Hebrew alphabet itself has no vowels, only consonants. The reader was expected to be able to supply the vowel sounds from context, etc. By the early Middle Ages, Hebrew was developing dialects, primarily due to the fact that there were no vowels to tell people how to pronounce it. The Rabbis and scholars devised a system of dots and dashes to represent vowel sounds. These vowel “points” are placed inside, above, below and next to letters, but may not touch the letters. They are not considered part of the text. Today they are used in Bibles, prayer books, song and poetry books and children's books, but are rarely used in newspapers, novels, etc.)     And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it   Our next point of grammar involves the present tense forms of the verb to be. In English these forms are am, art, is and are. Hebrew has such forms, but almost never uses them, except in reference to God, or when absolutely necessary for context. The reason for this may be that the forms are too close to God's name in Hebrew. While this may seem awkward to us, there are many other languages that don't use the present tense of the verb to be. For example, Russian has become so used to ignoring the forms, that some of them are completely obsolete. The Russian equivalent of am can't even be found in a dictionary or grammar book any more. They get along fine without it, and so does Hebrew. But English can't, so we have to insert the appropriate forms when translating: And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is Finally, we put in the words an abomination: And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is an abomination. This is the correct translation of Leviticus 18:22. It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman’s bed, for whatever reason. Culturally, a woman's bed was her own. Other than the woman herself, only her husband was permitted in her bed, and there were even restrictions on when he was allowed in there. Any other use of her bed would have been considered defilement. Other verses in the Law will help clarify the acceptable use of the woman's bed (Lev. 15)         Best matches for lev 18 22 hebrew Leviticus 18:22. The translations of this verse found in most English. Bibles are not supported by the Hebrew text. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with... women / a woman.                 an abomination: And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman's bed; it is an abomination.   This is the correct translation of Leviticus 18:22. It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman’s bed, for whatever reason. Culturally, a woman's bed was her own. Other than the woman herself, only her husband was permitted in her bed, and there were even restrictions on when he was allowed in there. Any other use of her bed would have been considered defilement. Other verses in the Law will help clarify the acceptable use of the woman's bed (Lev. 15).
 Posted by: DavidR  Friday 25 January 2013 - 05:30pm
Martin. Thanks for yours and for clarifying some of what you are saying. I agree 'inerrant' is unhelpful but your statement  'Samuel is the authoritative mouthpiece of God. What he says is what God says' comes close to that by my reading of it. Please hear me. I affirm scripture as utterly  trustworthy.  Samuel? Are you wanting to discuss the interpretation of narrative story in the OT? Or are you wanting to discuss the doctrine of scripture? At the moment I feel this text in Samuel is becoming a test case for whether I believe in the Word of God at all.  I don't find that helpful but I think you hear my responses as evasive about the Bible.  Am I right?  I have a concern that at times in the evangelical world the issue of the 'Doctrine/Authority of Scripture' becomes so anxiously central that any and every text within it is becomes a test case for the orthodoxy/soundness of those round the table.  And if the whole bible is the issue at stake then it is very hard to open up the Samuel text (or any other) with the careful reflective process that bible study needs. The discipline of interpreting of texts within their own context, history, theological tradition and literary genre becomes fatally narrowed to one of assent or allegiance to the whole. So faithful questions trigger suspicion.  There is a fear that to unpick one piece, to question one verse - any verse - brings down the whole thing down. It doesn't.  But I have taught long enough in evangelical theological colleges to know that that kind of inhibition stifles exploratory theological learning and can replace it with a kind of tribal compliance.  Martin, I do not think it is your intention but this can be the effect when a brief but hard text located within a larger, complex and subtle narrative is reduced to 'yes or no'. The 'big question' keeps taking over - and a culture of suspicion can infect honest debate.  For that reason, and that alone, I am choosing not to answer you. But I hope you are clearer on my position - and that I question and probe yours with respect. 'If someone denies the trustworthiness of scripture, it is pointless debating the interpretation of it'.  I do not agree at all. The Bible does not cease to be uniquely 'God breathed' because the person reading does not start from an evangelical doctrine of scripture. Isn't this evangelism? I know people with a very low expectation of bible and its inspiration who have come to believe in its unique trustworthiness through a creative reading and discussing of it in the context of hospitable faith.  Nor do I believe that the only positions available to those unwilling/unable to offer the resounding 5* evangelical affirmation of the trustworthiness of scripture is to be a cynical redneck in the desert making it all up or one of those fabled wicked liberals in our fevered evangelical imaginations whose idea of a good bible study is to take the scissors to the few remaining verses bibles they decide they don't like. The people we are wanting to engage with here do not exist as caricatures.    Finally, over the years I have come to owe a huge debt to preachers and writers and friends outside the evangelical tradition for the way they have opened and explored and taught scripture. This is precisely because they don't start from my assumptions. I haven't always agreed but I am in no doubt as to their faith and love for the Word. Of course there are some mindless reductionists out there. And some mad evangelicals too.  Overall I think if we wish to command respect for our high view of scripture from those who come with different convictions or vocabulary or expectations I think we might start with a more respectful listening to those we disagree with.  I agree there is an issue here. But caricatures and cartoons do us no favours and win us no audiences except those who already agree with us.      
 Posted by: NormanP  Friday 25 January 2013 - 02:36pm
  'A particular chapter of relevance would be Leviticus 18. We can debate Lev 18 v22 till the cows come home but it is pointless if we do not believe this really was God talking to Moses anyway but some list of things cobbled together by a bunch of desert rednecks claiming divine backing.'   MK, I love your description of the human side of verbal inspiration in the writing of Leviticus. After spending a mere 10 hours travelling through the Sinai desert, this normally urbane person was turning into a redneck, and was also turning ratsy on the subject of water! The wonder is that God was able to take the words of these desert rednecks, including Moses, and also mean every one of these words He 'breathed'. 
 Posted by: Deleted user 4983  Friday 25 January 2013 - 01:27am
Richard, thanks again - I'm finding your replies very useful, as is  often the case when hearing from someone who has changed their mind on  an issue. I would say my opinion on the matter is developing;  developing into what remains to be seen! I'm glad you're in agreement that the state is not ideal for moral  instruction. There are two aspects here, aren't there; children being  raised in care who might be better with a stable home whatever  sexuality the parents are, but at the moment, the state's insistence  on personal moral views of homosexual equality (with exclusion from  work or positions of influence for those who disagree) concerns me  more. And whilst you can argue that more children might find stable  homes with gay couples, I personally feel this is an underhand  political manoeuvre; with a small minority of the population even  being homosexual, a smaller minority still committing to permanent  monogamous relationships (as for heterosexual people - i'm not trying  to malign anyone here), a smaller minority still who actually want  children and of those, an even smaller minority who will happily adopt  rather than seek assistance/surrogacy so they can have a "partially  biological" child... I just remain unconvinced that gay couples are  the saviours of children in care. And even if they were, that isn't a  moral reason to encourage gay marriage, just a speculative fringe  benefit. However, this issue should absolutely be a challenge to  Christians to adopt (something I feel quite strongly about and is  something neglected by most Christians, to their shame -  perhaps if they took James 1:27 as seriously as "the big 6"...). As Bowman summarised, I feel that heterosexual marriage is a  biologically inevitable cell of society; one of my main arguments in  this is a belief in the institution of marriage as a social contract.  I think a great amount can be learnt from spending time with couples  from countries where arranged marriages are still the norm, and have  learnt to compromise and learn to love each other. Now, sadly this  system is also flawed and has resulted in much oppression, coercion  and abuse, but I think it does have lessons to teach the West who see  it simply as "what right does anyone else have to say who I can or  can't marry?" Marriage has purposes beyond that individual  relationship, and I think to say as Will Self does, that "just about  anybody should be able to marry just about anyone else", is to play  fast and loose with things we don't understand. In terms of gender roles, I fully agree, and am by no means saying all  men have to be macho and all women meek and delicate. I do understand  people are more complex than that. In fact I could immediately name  quite a few couples in which "the woman wears the trousers", and I  don't think this is either wrong or unbiblical! The woman described in  Proverbs certainly knows her own mind, and there are a host of shrewd  and dynamic women in the New Testament if you know where to look. But  of those couples, most have had children, and their children may be  gentle souls like their father or fierce household runners like their  mother, but they still have a strong grasp of the complex  complementary nature of male and female, despite what might look to  outsiders like an atypical dynamic. Saying, just because some Mums  work and some Dads iron, that there is no further value in the  heterosexuality of their union, does them a great disservice and  again, pretends that we understand things when we don't. I know that analogies from Christians can get silly sometimes, but  bear with me. This issue reminded me of another debate I had at  medical school, having heard (via a translator) a talk from a deaf  man. Such is the strength of deaf culture that he was insistent that  deafness was not an impairment, and that any "disability" was a  problem of society for neglecting to make certain things accessible to  the deaf. Now, I very much sympathise with his point, and agree that society  does "disable" many. Nevertheless, you cannot escape the fact that, in  even the most primitive society or just a gaggle of people, there are  some tasks you could simply not entrust to a deaf man. For example,  listening out for noisy predators, or listening out for falling shells  in a war zone. To me, the establishing of families and raising of children (and let's  face it, this is the bulk of what is meant by "building society") is  the job of husband and wife; even though there may be help from the  family, and even though some husbands and wives will end up without  child. I am under the impression that this position is supported by  social research. So to me, the concept of marriage equality for homosexual couples is  like the insistence that we give the deaf guy one of those listening  jobs! You can give him the title, and the badge, hat and whistle etc,  but it is not a lack of compassion, love or desire for equality that  prevents me from approving (necessarily). It's purely the recognition  that this "unit", despite surely having many virtues (and sometimes,  like the deaf man with a super sense of vibrational touch, virtues all  the more enabling for other tasks) is not a suitable foundation for  the full societal function for which marriage is ordained. This is why, to me at least, the distinction between "civil  partnership" and "marriage" is important, although arguably less so if  we have as a society allowed civil partners to adopt, or offered them  assisted fertility programmes (which I know we have).  Bowman said of  me that I "love babies" and as a trainee obstetrician, he is right of  course. And something within me, when I deliver an infant to a lesbian  couple, cannot help but feel a sadness that this child will never  truly have an earthly father, however much love he will surely  receive. Perhaps not to the same degree as to single mothers, but it  is there nonetheless. Finally, to comment again overall on the scriptural arguments. It is  not that the authority of scripture is not important to me, but again,  as Bowman astutely pointed out, my experience and observations of  society inform my understanding of scripture and vice versa  (So, my  approach to scripture is actually that of what many would call a  liberal!). If we truly thought that the ONLY reason gay marriage was a  bad idea was because of some obscure "thou shalt not" in the Old  Testament, that wouldn't be reason to object, it would be in many ways  reason to throw out the scripture wholesale. But the reason we study  it so carefully is not because we need to know exactly what the fine  print says in the rule book our malicious god would have us stick to,  it is because we believe prosperity and harmony are His intentions in  every way He guides us. Maybe not personal prosperity when we are  called to take up our cross, but overarching human well being.  Christians are being disingenuous and ultimately find themselves  uncovered when their implication is "I don't see any problem with it,  but I'm just submitting to authority." In other words, don't blame me,  blame God (in the words of Alan Partridge, "that's what Nazi war  criminals say...") and when society turns round and says "nuts to your  god", we are left without recourse. Can I ask, in what way is it that gay couples want to "be married?"  Because I am in agreement with Richard in so many ways; I am willing  to make almost all concessions in terms of legal recognition of a  relationship. But can you really agree that homosexual union is  equally, according to the current order of service, "the foundation of  family life", and "given by God... That they may be united together in  heart, body and mind?"
 Posted by: Bowman  Friday 25 January 2013 - 01:02am
Martin Kuhrt-- I worry that even your last beautiful post will be misunderstood as similar ones by Phil Almond have been. May I attempt a transposition to a different key?
 Posted by: MK  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 10:59pm
David R, And Samuel? …  well actually there does seem to a difference between the times when the narrator records the words of Yahweh as direct from Yahweh and when Yahweh’s words and will are declared through his human agents - Samuel or David for example. I do agree with you on this and the rest of what you said following on from that in that post. I'm not saying Samuel himself was inerrant in everything he ever said and did, or in everything recorded in Scripture. Of course his discernment was off beam when he looked at outward appearance of Jesse's sons. The text makes this clear. I fully understand your point about caution needed when Yahweh's words and will are declared through his human agents, and I have always believed the same. Credit me with some sophistication in reading the Bible. My point is that many who claim to follow Jesus do not believe the narrator when he is claiming to directly record the direct words of Yahweh. I ask again - do you? I am not trying to be bullying but trying to ascertain where you are coming from on the trustworthiness  of Scripture. I will respect any interpretation of scripture from anyone who says they submit to scripture. But if someone denies the trustworthiness of scripture, it is pointless debating the interpretation of it. If the narrator says that "the Word of the Lord came to Samuel and said....." then should that be believed or should we take it upon ourselves to judge  whether this is true or false? This is why I asked you whether you believe 1 Samuel 15 v10-11 is true. It's not just about these two verses. I might as well have asked, do you believe in Genesis 6 v5-7, Exodus 32 v9-10, Numbers 16 v35, Joshua 7 v14-15 or many other places where the narrator records the words of Yahweh as direct from Yahweh and severe words follow. A particular chapter of relevance would be Leviticus 18. We can debate Lev 18 v22 till the cows come home but it is pointless if we do not believe this really was God talking to Moses anyway but some list of things cobbled together by a bunch of desert rednecks claiming divine backing. The issue is not just about the Old Testament. Are the Gospel writers to be trusted when they record Jesus' severe words about God's wrath, judgment and hell? Sure, the interpretation and application of the words can always be debated - but can the Gospels be trusted to faithfully record Christ's teaching? I've always understood an Evangelical as someone who answers with a resounding 'yes'. We may not fully undersand, we may differ over interpretation, but we believe the Bible can be trusted. I do not like the words 'infallible' or 'inerrant' because they suggest the image of the Bible as being like a telephone directory. I prefer talking about the trustworthiness of Scripture because true Christianity is about a relationship with God and we need to know if the Bible is reliable in what it says about the character and purposes of God. There is no 'edge' to this post, but I do speak from the heart. Can we trust Scripture in what it directly attests to what God has said and done?
 Posted by: Bowman  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 10:38pm
Ambrose-- I don't think I've ever thanked you (or Jeremy P or Origen Adam or others here with same sex attraction) properly for the rare posts that show something of the way your life in Christ seems to you from within, and yet I find myself asking for more of them-- could you please also post here occasionally (and perhaps experientially) on the threads that are not jousting tournaments about the usual Six Texts? # I understand why most posts from the LGBTQIA mosaic that show up here are just countering rejection from other Christians. And with more puzzlement, I can see that the rest of us too seldom connect here around the commonalities of Christian life-- experiencing conversion, really getting a psalm, working through conviction to metanoia, taking advice from a trusted mentor, the experience of time after a eucharist, bringing a part of ourselves under control, acknowledging God's sovereignty over a problem, sensing Christ's love on a starry night, feeling a group converge on a sense of His will, explaining something about God to a child, an exposition of scripture making sense of something hard, trying to show Christ's love to a stranger, etc-- not to mention the commonalities of human life (winning at cricket, moving to a new town, finishing a book, etc). That does make it harder for one to speak up here unless fascinated by the news of the hour or compulsively drawn to conflict. But I worry that the absence of gay voices (among others) in ordinary threads is making our good faith conversations here worse than unreal, and perpetuating the very division and isolation that needs to end, no matter what one thinks about the Six. # For example, even if someone takes the prohibiting view of those Six, there is no reason why he should not be pleased that you yourself find something new in the scriptures or in life that you wish to share. Beyond that, it would not surprise me to discover that you (among others) have a lot to say, and could say it quite well.
 Posted by: Bowman  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 07:15pm
Roger-- Yes, as you say, there are some good things in this thread, especially from new voices. Still, it worries me that we are more minded to win a debate that really does not need us than to solve problems that really do need us. What can we do about this waste? # Speaking of the Forum more broadly, nearly all of our online attention to scripture is devoted to rebuttals to "conservative" refutations to "liberal" positions. We defend risk-takers from the risk-averse, and can all but give p-values for the village laboratory's experimental evidence proving-- excited persons of different mindsets see different things in tiny amounts of evidence, scriptural or otherwise. # The main threat to the wholeness of our bibles is not offended "liberals" snipping out pages, but "conservatives" uncharacteristically interested in far too few verses, and the rest of us joining in that myopia to engage it. What keeps our bibles whole is showing that it can speak to the hearts and minds of whole souls, and to "all sorts and conditions of men." Surely an "open evangelicalism" is about being more open to more scripture in more rounded ways that are more challenging? # The new voices on this thread have more healthy curiosity and think a bit more like problem-solvers. They may not agree among themselves, but without exception they have all pushed past that myopia to some variant of what Richard W calls "thinking from first principles," and they have nearly all challenged the thread to broaden its scope. Like yourself, I have to applaud them. # Whilst reactionary agendas are counterproductive, I am not unhappy with conservative voices per se. They can and sometimes have very happily and helpfully engaged in deepening an "open evangelical" understanding of scripture. Could we not continue this, and then take that to problems in apologetics, contemplation, ecclesiology, ethics, evangelism, etc that face the Church in the 21st C? + Mark Lawrence of South Carolina likens Anglican Christianity to an old growth forest one can spend a lifetime exploring and never fully knowing. Surely those who love it can find some uncharted paths to explore with us?
 Posted by: Ambrose StJohn redivivus  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 06:52pm
I find Martin's approach in general and to DavidR in particular condescending and 'the edge' is a bullying edge.   My this sense of  entitlement ?  A life of priveldge ?   How do you addresss your parishoners Martin ?    I have been unable to respond until now as I felt cowed and do feel the intimidation of the original article.   But then I am just a gay boy off a council estate - you won't get many of us on here for long with that tone.     You always know best - part of the fundamentalist mindset I guess.   But after all the intellectualising avoidance, you may come to feel you ahve something to gain, to learn, from the wonderful lesbians and gay men all around you - open your eyes and your heart.    
 Posted by: DavidR  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 05:55pm
Martin  'You are being evasive about the bible. Do you believe 1 Samuel 15 v10-11 is true or not?' That edge again. Can you understand that this feels as if my whole credibility as a bible-centred Christian hinges, in your eyes, on my yes or no to a question about two OT verses? I share Roger's entirely reasonable Christian reserve about simply replying 'yes' here.  But Martin, I actually went to the trouble of offering some thoughts from my own studies on other ways of reading the Samuel narrative here, informed not least by the work of some solid evangelical OT writers. I may not be right but I engaged with you. I positively suggested an alternative way of reading the saga. If I was being evasive you would not find me here at all.    
 Posted by: Roger Hurding  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 02:27pm
Richard W, thank you for your gracious and well-considered response to Tom.  You put your finger on the heart of the pastoral realities around those in same-sex relationships who seek God's way for them.  I strongly endorse your statement: "I would say that the equality of treatment of individuals regardless of their sex must be very high up the list of things that we hold dear.'
 Posted by: Roger Hurding  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 11:48am
Martin, I feel you overstate your case when you write, 'De-constructing Scripture by omitting or disregarding anything that you find offensive will leave you with very little of the bible left.  You will probably lose half the Old Testament, half the Gospels, a quarter of the epistles and most of Revelation.' Some of us have a genuine difficulty with the notion of Yahweh urging an attack on the Amalekites with the words: "... do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."  We have difficulty because we take the bible seriously and find it hard to equate such genocide with the life and teaching of Jesus, the one who said, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). And on the present topic, how do you handle Leviticus 20:13: 'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.'  Do you de-construct this statement?  And, if so, how and why? I feel you are too hard on Steve Chalke, and DavidR's response to him.  Steve's methodology may be questionable in some respects, but there is an alternative case to be made (as a number of us have attempted to do repeatedly on Fulcrum threads) that doesn't 'de-construct' scripture but seeks to take the classic texts seriously in their cultural and contextual settings.  This is a de-construction of the absolutist, traditional view rather than a dismantling or disbelieving of the texts. Bowman and DavidR helpfully point to Steve Chalke's overt commitment to the pastoral consequences of our theorizing and polarization.  For example, Bowman writes, 'The breadth of the pastoral response required by the times has finally grown beyond the scope of a hermeneutic derived from Calvinism' and highlights the tension between pragmatists and 'the hermeneutic that cannot quite reach those problems.' We need to find a via media that takes the disputed texts and their contexts seriously and, at the same time, faces and supports those gay Christians who, within committed relationships, have a sense of God's calling and seek to live Christ-like lives, bearing the fruit of the Spirit.
 Posted by: Richard W  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 11:47am
Tom, Thank you so much for your response to my post. I think we probably mainly agree on what we would like to happen in our world. The areas where we disagree seem more to lie in the area of how to make it happen. It so happens that your opinions are very similar to ones I held a few years ago - it's quite possible that I've gone entirely off the rails and that you won't encounter the same fate, but I do see things from a different perspective now. You might want to call that perspective “liberal”, but I tend to think of it as “from first principles”. An example here would be the issue, which you rightly raise, where, it seems that a view, like my own which emphasise gender neutrality “argues that decisions should be made as if each human were a blank slate, but happened to have genitals stuck on, and a shot of hormones given” I think in many respects this is the crux of the issue. So, do I believe that all humans are the same regardless of gender? In fact I do not. The evidence of my own experience tells me that women and men are different. However, for me the fundamental question is more basic than that: “Is there a need to make decisions for individuals on the basis of sex/gender, even though we may observe differences between the sexes?” To that question I would answer “No.” In some respects your post supports my answer. I completely agree with this statement: 'if, for reasons of genetic/hormonal disorder, someone feels that they DO have effectively "the wrong external genitalia" […] then I see no real issue in using the available technology to correct this as much as possible' I think you do betray your medical background in the wording of that; a doctor wants to find a disease and come up with a cure, whether it's a knife or counselling or medicine. I would suggest that sometimes the “cure” is just to let people be what they are. Just as there are women who seem to themselves to be trapped in men's bodies, so there are men who are attracted to, and fall in love with, other men. Notice that the disorder results in feeling they have the wrong genitalia. Such feelings are the same regardless of origin, and they make these individuals lie outside what some might regard as “normal” for their gender, just as some might regard homosexuals. Now supposing we frame our laws to stand by a heterosexuals-only view of marriage – it isn't going to make homosexual men realise they are wrong and go out and find wives and have children like “normal” people. So this is where I ask the question – what is the benefit to individuals, and society as a whole, to make decisions for people based on their gender? I would suggest that although often male and female complement each other in their traditional roles, there are many edge cases where a man does not behave like a typical man, and a woman does not behave like a typical woman. I think there's often more to this than simple “how to achieve sexual gratification”. In those cases we have some options: 1 – We can pretend it doesn't happen 2 – We can treat the individuals as a kind of deviant and put them to one side, maybe put them in jail, or execute them 3 – We can be nice to those people, affirm their differences, but then not let them make the decisions that it seems normal to them to be able to make 4 – We can allow those individuals to make up their own minds about who they should marry, what kind of sexual intercourse they should have etc. I would suggest that (1) hasn't been a viable option for at least 50 years. (2) still exists in some quarters, and the memory of this is what “activists” often perceive in the church today, even though the church's more likely public stance is option 3 (which is why you get views like the ones you saw expressed on Question Time). I would suggest that we all have the most to gain by (4). Why do I need to second guess what is right for some other individual. Do I have more insight into their existence than they do? I like your question “Does God bless a marriage just because it was in a church?”. One clergyman I heard preach on the subject said that he was unable to marry two men because such a marriage did not exist in the eyes of God. So my question is “Is it possible that God can choose to bless two men who have entered in to what they believe to be a marriage, even though it turned out not to be?”. I would suggest that it is, in fact, possible, by the grace of God. But even if it was not possible, how do we help things by not allowing them to marry? [Incidentally I agree with you that pornography is socially destructive. I would  argue that there is more of a case for trying to stop pornography than same-sex marriage. However, like you I would have to say that it's up to the individual as to whether they consume it (assuming that their mere consumption doesn't hurt anyone other than themselves). On the whole I regard pornography similar to smoking, never good for you, but the idea of banning it and creating a black market is worse than allowing it.] On adoption you said: “I believe that a child's moral instruction should also be received from parents” and “and certainly not the state, who I would not trust with anything near so important.” I would agree with this, and I would also suggest that two parents of the same sex (whether adoptive or fostered) are preferable to being brought up in a state-run home. You didn't like the notion “that the ideology of sexual equality trumps whatever social consequences it may have.” I would say that the equality of treatment of individuals regardless of their sex must be very high up the list of things that we hold dear. Surely that framework should be loose enough to allow two consenting adults to be able to choose their own lifelong partner? The Social consequences can only be weighed up if we know what the alternative is. I don't believe the church in general really has a grasp on what would happen if it fails to engage properly with couples in same-sex relationships, whether they want to be married or not; this is the bigger social issue, in my view.  
 Posted by: Bowman  Thursday 24 January 2013 - 01:05am
David R-- Andrew Goddard's important Fulcrum essay on Calvin's "revisionism" on usury was mentioned to me by Nersen Paul, whom we can now both thank for noticing it. As you say, Goddard does not hesitate in his notes to compare that revision to today's debates on That Topic, and so his reader comes away from it with a much clearer idea what a really good debate on this should look like. Goddard's article suggests to me that when "revisionism" is good, it will raise the standard of scriptural argument, not lower it. # Beyond the obvious difference of opinion between Martin Kuhrt and Stephen Chalke, I read MK's article not only for his own thoughtful way of proving the theorems-- which I will read again-- but also as a well-warranted warning to all not to lower the standard of scriptural argument on a topic so important. With all due respect to Chalke-- who is at least doing something about a pastoral emergency-- I was glad to see MK insist on more rigour. # Your call for mindful and historically-informed interpretation of the scriptures makes sense, of course. May I suggest a perspective on this moment for your critique? The breadth of the pastoral response required by the times has finally grown beyond the scope of a hermeneutic derived from Calvinism, and so we see a tension between those who insist on a response that fully solves problems on the ground and those who will not yield on the hermeneutic that cannot quite reach those problems. The problems are too serious to ignore, though it is hard to be sure what solution is best, but "conservatives" say little about them ; the received hermeneutic has no obvious replacement, and it still does a lot of good within its former scope, but eager pragmatists see it more as a nuisance than as a tradition deserving respect. When the discussants are suspicious, the problem-solvers suspect the conservative ulema of not caring, and the latter suspect the former of just being too faithless for a bit of non-conformity to the world. There is danger: although basic hermeneutical thinking is the only solution to this-- and it may be that only Evangelicals can do it-- the cycles of suspicion are draining energies away from it, and we could be left with merely ad hoc solutions to problems alongside an unfairly discredited tradition. We need Calvin's creativity and synthetic genius.
 Posted by: MK  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 10:45pm
David, I accept there is 'an edge' to what I say. This is probably because the stakes are so high. I understand this to be about idolatry, spiritual warfare, obedience to God's word, the future of the nation, unity in the church, pastoral care of young people and ultimate salvation. In the words of Bill Shankly, 'it's more important than life or death.' You are being evasive about the bible. Do you believe 1 Samuel 15 v10-11 is true or not?
 Posted by: Bowman  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 04:47pm
Sorry David B, I've misconstrued the first sentence of your 22865 below, getting your point nearly perfectly backwards. In this thread, you mean to challenge, not to commend, theological voluntarism-- roughly, the idea that since acts are wrong only because God says that they are, reasoning about them is just exegesis of the text in which he says that, and direct inspection of doers and deeds in the world outside the text tells us nothing whatsoever about his will. Yes, that idea does have a long Reformed history, and Evangelicals usually catch it from Calvinists, though Catholics, Anglican or otherwise, usually reject it as dangerous error. Both in Martin Kuhrt's essay and in our posts, you see this view as narrowing our view of our covenant relationship to God, and as distracting us from everything concrete and practical in our relationship to LGBTQIA people that is not captured by the wording of a commandment somewhere. (Put another way, any behaviour that is haplessly captured by the wording of even an inexplicable commandment is tugged by its gravitational pull into an exegetical black hole from which no light can escape, and moral life anywhere in its neighbourhood is subtly warped.) That poses a practical hazard that we will become ever more gratified by our exegetical arguments, whilst not actually doing anything for people at an elevated risk of depression, suicide, etc from the isolation caused precisely by the certitude without actual knowledge that so pleases us. And so you find this whole thread to be an illogical response to Chalke's essay, which after all announced, not a new biblical commentary, but a new pastoral initiative to end that isolation. A reasonable point, though perhaps unfair to some. Sorry to have misunderstood it.
 Posted by: Deleted user 4983  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 01:54pm
Tried to post this on Monday but something didn't work... Bowman - thank you, I think...! - there are so many layers to your summary I'm not sure where to start, so I won't, but I think it was fair. Richard, thanks so much for your response. I fully agree with you regarding the argument about God blessing marriages (or not being wanted) in the secular world. Does God bless a marriage just because it was in a church? Even if He (along with a reasonably intelligent onlooker) could easily tell that the foundations to that relationship are shaky, perhaps already fraught with infidelity, and have a near future of abuse or divorce? Unlikely! But the marriage of those in church who are not in fact genuine professing Christians and like the trappings of a religious ceremony in the same way they choose a certain colour of flower or dessert for their big day is another huge can of worms. In short, although a large part of me would like to dis-establish completely and insist on some proof of true belief and regular attendance at a church before couples are allowed to marry in church, I would mourn the loss of the opportunity it provides for the couple in question and their family. Many couples I know have in fact become believing Christians due to simply becoming aware of the presence of God during their originally "superficial" church ceremony, or due to the few marriage preparation interviews the vicar encouraged them to attend. #You raise the wider issue of what standard we can expect to hold non-believers to (tying the hands of all due to the beliefs of some). This is an immense subject, but to approach this very briefly, yes, I believe we hold our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to much more rigorous standards of holiness than anyone else. Christ comes first. It is probably detrimental to try to impose your moral beliefs on others if they fundamentally disagree with the source of that authority. However, I feel I have as much right as anyone else to try to guide the society that my children will inherit. Consider for instance pornography; I consider making and using this to be a sin, but also to be socially destructive. Do I have a moral right to insist my friends stop consuming it? No, not until they accept Jesus and therefore agree to have their minds transformed by the Holy Spirit and to, I hope, see all people (including desperate and addicted women) with the love that God sees them. To do otherwise would see me labelled a moral pest. But does that mean that I happily ignore any public vote on whether pornography should be made more or less easily available? No. I regard it as an opportunity to to represent God's truth and love in a public situation. It's admittedly a paradox that I am still thinking much about. I do not wish to live in a theocracy, but equally I cannot help but want to use what little influence I have to encourage society in the values I see in scripture, not because I want everyone to agree with me, but because it is my belief that peace and love lie therein. Unfortunately for our society, the fact that this kind of a societal vision requires a good deal of self-control makes it increasingly unpalatable. #Secondly, I was not fully aware of the ability of civil partnerships to adopt, but it does not surprise me, although I'm saddened by this fact when it runs in parallel with the morally conservative Christians being denied the chance to provide a stable loving environment for a damaged child because of their views on homosexuality. To add to my previous post, I believe that a child's moral instruction should also be received from parents (contrast this with atheists believing that to raise a child as Christian is tantamount to child abuse...) and certainly not the state, who I would not trust with anything near so important. This is not the opinion of the more aggressively outspoken liberal camp... I was watching Question Time recently when a slightly sullen looking young lady proclaimed "a travesty... That we are not forcing religious groups to perform these ceremonies... In our liberal, progressive, democratic society... We are pandering to these homophobic, bigoted sections of society." I mean, the degree of militant insistence to the state-approved moral code is quite frightening. Mankind has been there before, and it was called Soviet Russia. English liberals approved then too, until the evidence of the real fruits of that progressive society became clear. #To address your final point Richard, about these proposals opening up the opportunity of marriage to anyone "irrespective of their gender or sexual orientation." My view on this is that it is assuming the postmodern, deconstructed view of gender, which Is something I would already seek to challenge. It takes the view that gender in all aspects of life should effectively be disregarded, similar to how we now (rightly) disregard ethnicity. It argues that decisions should be made as if each human were a blank slate, but happened to have genitals stuck on, and a shot of hormones given. I disagree with this. I see gender as an intrinsic part of who we are, and see the biological complementing of male and female as probably the easiest way to regard the concept of the myriad different ways that male and female complement each other. Similarly, to talk about "homosexual intercourse" I think betrays the paradigm from which you argue, which I also believe to be flawed; the idea that if these two "humans" (i.e. "whatever their gender") find mutual sexual gratification pleasurable and emotionally strengthening (or even just physically possible), then it is immediately seen as the equal of the biologically very clear order of heterosexual intercourse. "Bisexuality" also falls into this idea that the other person's identity (or perhaps your own) is not woven to their gender, and therefore as long as the feelings are mutual and you are able to forge a relationship, gender can be either ignored or forced together to suit the feelings you have for this person. In fact, this whole argument is in some sense a vagary of our anatomical design! Transgender individuals is a vastly complex topic, but I have less issue here; if, for reasons of genetic/hormonal disorder, someone feels that they DO have effectively "the wrong external genitalia" (and as a doctor I know that this happens in a number of conditions), then I see no real issue in using the available technology to correct this as much as possible, if the individual is then able to - as much as possible - accept themselves as a whole human being, including their (new) gender, and seek to form an appropriate relationship on that basis (I.e. heterosexual, according to their new gender). #To tie in these last two points (about shaping society, and postmodern paradigms), an interesting exchange. I wrote a blog post (in fact, a polemic, I freely admit) criticising a Times agony aunt for her advice to a supposed reader wishing to engage in a casual sexual relationship (it can be found at reasonablyradical.wordpress.com). I had an interesting response from a good friend who works for the BBC (sadly not via the comment facility and therefore not publicly preserved). In the article, I criticised the author for encouraging women to act in a way that men have been (rightly) criticised for acting for centuries, I.e. recklessly engaging in sexual encounters without consideration of the emotional impact. My friend disagreed, and said he DID see it as progress that women were free to act in ways previously only "available" to men, even if it meant more vitriol, more damaged relationships, more resentment and a wedge being driven further between the sexes in society. Needless to say I disagree with him, but it was an interesting case study in the approach of a fashionably-minded liberal - that the ideology of sexual equality trumps whatever social consequences it may have. This is the degree to which we have accepted the prima facie superiority of a particular set of liberal ideals.
 Posted by: DavidR  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 09:38am
  Martin, Thank you for your response to me but in all honesty Roger and James expressed my concerns much more eloquently and thoughtfully and deserve a fuller response. With all respect there is still an edge to your responses that suggests you can’t really believe other views or interpretations of scripture can actually be seriously intended and so you can assume the most destructive of motives. ‘This is not a game’. And who anywhere here looks as if they are playing games? I am as serious as you are. I certainly know no gay Christians who find commitment to the evangelical tradition ‘a game’. Quite the reverse. ‘I have reflected deeply on this issue for years’ (thank you – and so have I and others on this thread). ‘I think you need to realise that some people take doctrinal and ethical stances out of love for the Lord and a deep desire for people to be faithful to him and help others to know him better too and to live fully human, flourishing lives.’ Why do you think I assume anything other of your motives? But please credit me with seeking the same. And Samuel? …  well actually there does seem to a difference between the times when the narrator records the words of Yahweh as direct from Yahweh and when Yahweh’s words and will are declared through his human agents - Samuel or David for example. And I think we are meant to notice. This does indeed suggest that the narrator leaves things open at times and poses the question for his listeners – ‘did Yahweh say or will this?’ The Hebrew story style is to present or ‘show’ events rather than ‘tell’ or pronounce – something our expository preaching tradition struggles to allow I think. This is good theological reflection at work. The parallel accounts of Saul and David’s choosing as king illustrates this well. Why it is only in the second of the near identical sequences of selection that Yahweh suddenly declares that good looks are not what he goes by, but the heart? Is there not a critique of Samuel’s discernment at this point? (And do you really mean to suggest that Samuel is verbally inerrant?)  I do not think this results in tearing pages out of the bible – once again you presume a lack of seriousness. If the first Hebrew listeners didn’t rip up their scrolls, why should we? 
 Posted by: Bowman  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 06:47am
Amalekites = ... (2) In cricket, used of a team opposing, usually unsuccessfully, the team from the Diocese of Southwark.
 Posted by: Bowman  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 06:31am
Richard W-- On account of the President's spirited evocation of Seneca, Selma, and Stonewall in his Inaugural Address yesterday, I spent more of today on my friends' variations of your argument than I had planned ;-) But you will have noticed that my 22914 to David B below mentions Evangelical thinking here about Christians, the State, and That Topic, and nearly all of that thinking accommodates the classical liberalism of both the First Amendment to the US Constitution and your last post. Alas, the classical liberalism that they and you honour does not address the grievance of those mad at Evangelicals. # Even if their religion affords them private motivations for doing so, classical liberalism allows believers to make bona fide public claims. Conversely, it also assures non-believers the freedom to ignore private reasons for claims that they cannot understand, and to evaluate the public reasons that they possibly can. So when Christians say that sodomy is wicked because the Bible says it is, and that approving gay marriage is reckless because there is too little proof that gay parenting is good, they are entitled both to hold and to express both opinions, and their non-believing countrymen are no less entitled to ignore the incomprehensible first one and to evaluate the debatable second one. That religion privately motivates some voters to make public claims like that one is is no different in principle from immense wealth privately motivating other voters (who believe that austerian budgets will keep their taxes low) to argue publically that austerian budgets will promote economic recovery (UK) or avert government bankruptcy (US). (Plutocratic austerians are surely wrong about the economies of both countries, but they seem unable to see this, so these are still bona fide claims.) Nor is this theory biased toward Christians-- Jews have a special attachment to Israel that does not invalidate their bona fide public arguments in support of a flawed but evolving Israeli democracy, which US Evangelicals overwhelmingly accept. In short, liberal political theory is clear-- a party with a private interest in a policy does no wrong in making the best bona fide public case for that policy that it can. # Nevertheless, my liberal friends here are having none of it. As you might suspect, they are more angry at white Evangelicals over sex than at the rich over austerity or the Jews over Israel. It offends their "one person one vote" ideal that the religious motivation of white Evangelicals gives them bloc cohesion and power beyond their numbers. It offends their libertarian sensibilities that Evangelical morality supposes that the health of society and family limits the scope of an individual's sexual freedom, though everyone thought something like that until a couple of centuries ago. And alas, they associate Evangelicalism with racism. If not for the Constitution, it seems unlikely that my most liberal friends would agree happily to the reciprocity you suggest.
 Posted by: David B  Wednesday 23 January 2013 - 01:18am
Thank you, David R (22Jan), for taking up my point that God's commanding does NOT make it a moral law.  The distinction however is not between "public" and "ecclesial" morality (although it is between two kingdoms, of the World and of Christ).  [When expicit, this thread has been about personal behaviour, not the Government's proposals for same-sex 'marriage'.]  The difference between the 2nd (5) Commandment(s) and the 1st (5) is what Paul says everybody's consciences tell them vs. what is involved in being a 'holy people' - most specifically, as Bowman has written more than once, and Roger Hurding introduced, how local churches seeking to be faithful to the Bible act out Christian love to same-gender cohabitees among them.  Can this thread please turn to actual current teaching, pastoral, evangelistic and administrative practices by clergy and lay leadership, the similarities and differences? - and consider how such strategies turn on the broad tenor of Scripture, not the minutiae of difficult texts from historical backgrounds which have to be speculative in detail. //  I also have to disgree with Norman P, and Martin again, (19 Jan): a holy nation does not mean merely a morally righteous nation; it means a nation distinctive to Yahweh's covenant .  Slavery, oppression of women and damage to children are immoral, just as the sun going round the earth, not just across the sky, is factually wrong. Neglecting the Sabbath or taking God's name in vain are not immoral; they are sacriligeous. //  It seems that the basic Biblcal issue in this thread centres on celibacy; so let's not be mealy mouthed. No-one is suggesting that it is immoral, is s/he?, to use contraception, to have anal intercourse, or make mutual pleasure before marriage while somewhere between fully clothed and penile/vaginal intercourse?  The question is whether any of those or other acts are sub-Christian on biblical grounds, and, IF they believe so, what different churches do for Christ's sake about the confessed sinner against God (sic), rather than about admitted immoral acts, e.g. a theft,  a lie, an adultery or a murder.  It would be invaluable of course also to have experiences of those systematic local policies from members who are in same-gender partnerships, or indeed heterosexual cohabitees without church marriage. Furthermore, premarital intercourse is highly relevant in that LGTB self-identities as well are often crystalised during adolescence. 
 Posted by: MK  Tuesday 22 January 2013 - 08:40pm
Tom, thanks for your post. Something of an oasis in this thread! Origen Adam,  Your posts do show quite a gulf between what you and I believe about the bible and this is bound to have an impact on what we believe and seek to practice. You are quite open about the fact that you believe some parts of the bible that purport to be God's clear and unambiguous commands were certainly nothing of the sort. This is a very serious matter because if gravely damages the authority of scripture. If bad things are attributed to a good God these false passages should be ripped from the pages of scripture to prevent people being mis-led as to the character of God (actually, Sir Ian Mckellen admits to ripping out the texts about homosexuality from the Gideon bibles when he stays in hotel rooms). Reprinting the bible with these passages in would be a libellous activity and reading them in church an exercise in slander if they were false.  You gave the example of the record of God'scommand through Samuel  to Saul regarding the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15 v3. It just might be possible to theorise that the narrator of the book is leaving open the possibility that Samuel misheard God on this. But this is unlikely, because the text gives no hint of this - exactly the reverse. It is failure to carry out this command that leads Saul to be rejected as king. Samuel is the authoritative mouthpiece of God. What he says is what God says. Jesus made it clear that "it is written" was equivalent to "God says". De-constucting Scripture by omitting or disregarding anything that you find offensive will leave you with very little of the bible left.  You will probably lose half the Old Testament, half the Gospels, a quarter of the epistles and most of Revelation. I do not believe it is true that disasbled priests were banned from offering food at the altar because people thought they must be terrible sinners. Yes, by Jesus time many people assumed disability was a pretty direct punishment for one's or one's parent sin. But to say that the Old Testament narrator or Moses made this up, or recorded something invented by men rather than commanded by God is again to completely de-construct the bible. God perhaps instituted this law for the same reason that he forbade the sacrifice of disabled animals - the sacrificial system relied on the priest and the offering being outwardly symbolic of 'wholeness'. I may not fully understand this, but I do believe the command was from God and not something man made up for ignorant and prejudiced reasons.   David R, I think that if a 'greatly respected senior evangelical leader' does advocate a major change in doctrine of ethics and offers a serious and considered scriptural argment for doing so, then the right response is to take time to weigh carefully and prayerfully what has been said and try to go back and launch ever more deeply into the scriptures under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But if a leader offers just a few  threadbare arguments and is mishandling the word of God in order to justify his new stance, then I think it is legitimate to challenge these arguments publicly and quickly. This is not a game. Chalke's intervention was not really to offer any new or profound scriptural insight as you recognise. Yet you say how grateful you are to him for his 'very courageous' and 'bold pastoral' move, and you are sure 'he and his community' would have spent much time wrestling with the texts and reflecting on this issue. Well if he has, why hasn't he offered something better? What has happened to Gary Macfarlane, the Relate counsellor hounded out of his job, for his courteous, respectful loving and sincere commitment to Christ and how that works out in advising people about sex shows that the world hates the light. In  Western culture today it is more courageous to be a Gary McFarlane than a Steve Chalke. I became convinced of the 'case for women church leaders not just by being impressed by getting to know a few women leaders but by Godly and careful exegesis of the biblical texts.  If a similar Godly and careful exegesis can make a case for why the bible is not saying what is seems clearly to be saying over sex I would give this argument the untmost respect and in-depth consideration and not jump in quickly at all. As it is, I have reflected deeply on this issue for years. It is not 'theoretical' for me but deeply relational and pastoral and part of pilgrimage in following Jesus. Sometimes people labelled 'conservative' over certain issues are assumed to be lacking in love, and nasty angry people who are miserable themselves and want others to be miserable too. I think you need to realise that some people take doctrinal and ethical stances out of love for the Lord and a deep desire for people to be faithful to him and help others to know him better too and to live fully human, flourishing lives. Martin Kuhrt
 Posted by: Richard W  Tuesday 22 January 2013 - 02:42pm
Bowman: I'm not sure if it's true of Tom, but I think a lot of Christians, when considering matters such as this, do miss the point that the world exists for everyone, and most of the people in our country are not Christians. When we come to make laws, and define how we want to live, my approach (as you will have guessed) is to say that the most freedom possible should be given to the individual in matters of how they want to organise their lives, so long as there is no direct detriment to others. By doing this I hope that other people will afford me the same courtesy and that my freedoms, religious and other, will be upheld. Jesus, Paul, Peter and everyone in the New Testament  lived in non-Christian countries. It's worth remembering that as we read their words. We don't see from his epistles any political agenda on how Paul would alter the law if he could so that the rest of society would have to go along with his world view. I would imagine if he put his mind to it, Paul would find a lot to dislike in the laws of the various countries he visited, but instead of a political campaign we see only details about our personal relationship with God and how following the law does not make one righteous. Paul allows local politics to sort itself out and concentrates on the gospel instead.  Christians and the LGBTQ community have a lot more in common than they think. One day, when someone campaigns that certain forms of religion should not be acceptable, or that Christians should be forced to do something with which they disagree on a matter of conscience, I would like to think that we could have made enough friends among other minority groups so that many will say "Those Christians stood up for the rights of us when we were marginalised - I will stand up for them". Instead I fear the response is more likely to be "Those Christians wouldn't allow my freedoms, I won't allow theirs". Not that we should need any motivation other than "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matt 7:12. 
 Posted by: DavidR  Tuesday 22 January 2013 - 09:27am
Bowman   Thank you very much for this. Really, really helpful in the present evangelical debating climate.  I somehow missed Andrew Goddard's essay too which is excellent. Two things come through for me from this. 1. At its most mature Evangelical faithfulness and obedience to scripture in history has never meant an unthinking literal reading of the text. The Reformers themselves witness to the importance of bringing a consecrated mind to the task of understanding what we read. Despite the 'plain meaning of scripture' Calvin comes to a revisionist position in his qualified theological support of usury. Paradoxically it is his high understanding and interpretation of scripture that requires this.  Although for Goddard this does not lead him to revise his own conservative position of same sex relating there are clear hermenuetical reasonances here for those of us exploring a more inclusive position based on a faithful interpretation of  scripture.   2. The importance of reading a text in history - then and now.  The Word is spoken in history and in a context. Goddard takes care to locate Calvin's words in the context of his own times and Calvin's studies of usury in scripture shows similar care. This strong resistance to the significance of social context (or rather that it is only relevant if Paul - for example - says so explictly) is one of the sticking points on these threads - especially texts on headship and women.   
 Posted by: Deleted user 4983  Monday 21 January 2013 - 10:11pm
Bowman - thank you, I think...! - there are so many layers to your summary I'm not sure where to start, so I won't, but I think it was fair. Richard, thanks so much for your response. I fully agree with you regarding the argument about the desire (or not) for God to bless marriages in the secular world. Does God bless a marriage just because it was in a church? Even if He (along with a reasonably intelligent onlooker) could easily tell that the foundations to that relationship are shaky, perhaps already fraught with infidelity, and have a near future of abuse or divorce? Unlikely! But the marriage of those in church who are not in fact genuine professing Christians and choose the trappings of a religious ceremony in the same way they choose a certain colour of flower or dessert for their big day is another huge can of worms. In short, although a large part of me would like to dis-establish completely and insist on some proof of true belief and regular attendance at a church before couples are allowed to marry there, I would mourn the loss of the opportunity it provides for the couple in question and their family to hear the gospel and encounter God. Many couples I know have in fact become believing Christians due to simply becoming aware of the presence of God during their originally "superficial" church ceremony, or due to the few marriage preparation interviews the vicar encouraged them to attend. This taps into the peculiar blend of privileges and restrictions we have as the Church of England. #You raise the wider issue of what standard we can expect to hold non-believers to (tying the hands of all due to the beliefs of some). This is an immense subject, but to approach this very briefly, yes, I believe we hold our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to much more rigorous standards of holiness than anyone else. Christ comes first. It is probably detrimental to try to impose your moral beliefs on others if they fundamentally disagree with the source of that authority. However, I feel I have as much right as anyone else to try to guide the society that my children will inherit. Consider for instance pornography; I consider making and using this to be a sin, but also to be socially destructive. Do I have a moral right to insist my friends stop consuming it? No, not until they accept Jesus and therefore agree to have their minds transformed by the Holy Spirit and to, I hope, see all people (including desperate and addicted women) with the love that God sees them. To do otherwise would see me labelled a moral pest. But does that mean that I happily ignore any public vote on whether pornography should be made more or less easily available? No. I regard it as an opportunity to to represent God's truth and love in a public situation. It's admittedly a paradox that I am still thinking much about. I do not wish to live in a theocracy, but equally I cannot help but want to use what little influence I have to encourage society in the values I see in scripture, not because I want everyone to agree with me, but because it is my belief that peace, love and provision lie therein. Unfortunately for our society, the fact that this kind of a societal vision requires a good deal of self-control makes it increasingly unpalatable. #Secondly, I was not fully aware of the ability of civil partnerships to adopt, but it does not surprise me, although I'm saddened by this fact when it runs in parallel with the morally conservative Christians being denied the chance to provide a stable loving environment for a damaged child because of their views on homosexuality. To add to my previous post, I believe that a child's moral instruction should also be received from parents (contrast this with atheists believing that to raise a child as Christian is tantamount to child abuse...) and certainly not the state, who I would not trust with anything near so important. This is not the opinion of the more aggressively outspoken liberal camp... I was watching Question Time recently when a slightly sullen looking young lady proclaimed "a travesty... That we are not forcing religious groups to perform these ceremonies... In our liberal, progressive, democratic society... We are pandering to these homophobic, bigoted sections of society." I mean, the degree of militant insistence to the state-approved moral code is quite frightening. Mankind has been there before, and it was called Soviet Russia. English liberals approved then too, until the evidence of the real fruits of that progressive society became clear. #To address your final point Richard, about these proposals opening up the opportunity of marriage to anyone "irrespective of their gender or sexual orientation." My view on this is that it is assuming the postmodern, deconstructed view of gender, which Is something I would already seek to challenge. It takes the view that gender in all aspects of life should effectively be disregarded, similar to how we now (rightly) disregard ethnicity. It argues that decisions should be made as if each human were a blank slate, but happened to have genitals stuck on, and a shot of hormones given. I disagree with this. I see gender as an intrinsic part of who we are, and see the biological complementing of male and female as probably the easiest way to regard the concept of the myriad different ways that male and female complement each other. Similarly, to talk about "homosexual intercourse" I think betrays the paradigm from which you argue, which I also believe to be flawed; the idea that if these two "humans" (i.e. "whatever their gender") find mutual sexual gratification pleasurable and emotionally strengthening, then it is immediately seen as the equal of the biologically very clear order of heterosexual intercourse. "Bisexuality" also falls into this idea that the other person's identity (or perhaps your own) is not woven to their gender, and therefore as long as the feelings are mutual and you are able to forge a relationship, gender can be either ignored or forced together to suit the feelings you have for this person. In fact, this whole argument is in some sense a vagary of our anatomical design! Transgender individuals is a vastly complex topic, but I have less issue here; if, for reasons of genetic/hormonal disorder, someone feels that they DO have effectively "the wrong external genitalia" (and as a doctor I know that this happens in a number of conditions), then I see no real issue in using the available technology to correct this as much as possible, if the individual is then able to - as much as possible - accept themselves as a whole human being, including their (new) gender, and seek to form an appropriate relationship on that basis (I.e. heterosexual, according to their new gender). #To tie in these last two points (about shaping society, and postmodern paradigms), an interesting exchange. I wrote a blog post (in fact, a polemic, I freely admit) criticising a Times agony aunt for her advice to a supposed reader wishing to engage in a casual sexual relationship (it can be found at reasonablyradical.wordpress.com). I had an interesting response from a good friend who works for the BBC (sadly not via the comment facility and therefore not publicly preserved). In the article, I criticised the author for encouraging women to act in a way that men have been (rightly) criticised for acting for centuries, I.e. recklessly engaging in sexual encounters without consideration of the emotional impact. My friend disagreed, and said he DID see it as progress that women were free to act in ways previously only "available" to men, even if it meant more vitriol, more damaged relationships, more resentment and a wedge being driven further between the sexes in society. Needless to say I disagree with him, but it was an interesting case study in the approach of a fashionably-minded liberal - that the ideology of sexual equality trumps whatever social consequences it may have. This is the degree to which we have accepted the prima facie superiority of a particular set of liberal ideals.
 Posted by: Bowman  Monday 21 January 2013 - 08:49pm
NormanP-- For another useful historical parallel, consider thinking about the other sin, condemned by Many Texts, that has historically influenced Christian interpretation of the Six Texts-- usury. Since Calvin's argument that the Church should reinterpret the texts that condemn excesses of lending at interest (on this, Andrew Goddard has a superb Fulcrum essay), Protestants have not seen banking per se as sinning, and the whole subsequent progress of economics now makes it hard to see how we reasonably could. We have simply had to accept that most capitalistic acts, although from a certain "goldbug" point of view contra naturam (the phrase was first applied to the "unnatural" growth of money by usury, not sodomy), do a lot of the good that we see in the world. # However, as in the ancient cases we have discussed below, a principle has survived the prohibition. I suspect that Justin Welby is not unaware of the Many Texts in the scriptures when asserting that bankers are obliged to serve a higher calling. And from time to time we recall the Jubilee Year, not to require modern civil legislation routinely enforcing this law of ancient Israel, but because the memory of that law still marks a boundary between the unified people we were created to be and the devices and desires of our own class-warped hearts. Although the past several years and the rationale for austerity have made it clear that Calvin's good work actually did set us on a somewhat slippery slope where real moral risks must be managed-- better, it must be admitted, than we are presently doing-- nobody calls for a return to the medieval economy. # The difficulty with the Six Texts is that they are so few and so oblique that a latter-day Calvin has very little on which to confidently base an enduring scriptural principle to guide us through all the difficulties that arise with respect to a human fragility that probably afflicts a bit less than 10% of the population. Those on all sides who seem entirely sure about this also seem not to have taken other perspectives on this problem, which can be hard to do without some empathy and ancillary learning. # Despite the Many Texts, Stephen Chalke and Martin Kuhrt probably both carry credit cards without much guilt, and their essays are best read as an honest search for enduring principles that can give us similar confidence with respect to same sex attraction. My guess is that those principles will come from pastors who actually work with the problem, just as Calvin left his study and went to the market to learn something about banking, commerce, and poverty.
 Posted by: Bowman  Monday 21 January 2013 - 06:25pm
Richard W-- Your last post is elegantly pragmatic, reducing Christian duty to liberal citizenship and decision to the smooth calculation of probable consequences, but I think that is just what might seem eccentric about it to Christians whose views approximate Tom's 22911. If I read him aright, Tom's view that the family actually is the biologically-inevitable cell of society both confirms his restrictive reading of the Six Texts, and also trumps whatever regard he has for the dream of a perfectly neutral society of libertarians. # Because Tom's view of the Six is at least partly based on firsthand observation of his actual society, it seems immune to the usual "pluralistic" critiques of "religious dogmas" in the public square. An ancient tradition has sounded an alarm, and Tom, hearing it, has gone to the scene and found a fire (or at least a fire hazard). His religious duty was to listen for the alarm, and his civic duty was to see flames (or hazards) and act as ordinary people do. That other people listen to other alarms was not relevant to him, and that he heard his alarm has not prevented them from listening to their own. The people at the scene are not sorry that he brought a fire truck, though they do not quite understand how he knew to do it. # Tom may, but need not, go so far as to oppose as perverse all measures that systematically treat individual rights as prior to sound family-formation as robust evidence reveals that. Unlike some Christians, he does seems to recognise, with compassion, that some products of families will not start new families, and have a wider scope of social freedom as a consequence of that choice. But he sees that, as soon as one ventures into the complex web of natural processes that make new persons in human families, one incurs a very high " reproductive cost" that is never wholly calculable in advance, and he also sees that it is very hard to square this reality with an approach that starts from a theory of rights. Freed from reliance on such a theory by his habit of listening for alarms, Tom may, if evidence actually confirms the concerns they raise, come to oppose any or all of the concessions you mention in the best interests of the rising generation. He may not be a consistent libertarian pluralist, but he feels responsible for the young of his society, as usual, for a mix of motivations. # The Tom of 22911 is a Christian, but he is also an empiricist making evidence-based choices in the best interests of his society. His faith does not lead him away from facts but toward them, and that faith suggests patterns in those facts that might not even be thinkable thoughts to persons passionately-- may we say, "dogmatically?"-- committed to more systematising views of things, whether theological, sexual, social, or political. He loves God and England and families and babies and the complex persons that babies become, and for the sake of all of that Tom and centrists like him have-- the phrase is from Leon Kass and Michael Sandel-- the grace of openness to the unbidden.
 Posted by: Richard W  Monday 21 January 2013 - 02:00pm
Tom, Thank you for your well thought-out contribution.  In it you said: But when we talk of "marriage", inside or outside the church, we A) talk about asking to for God to bless as sacred something he has clearly prohibited (same sex intercourse) and B) quite deliberately opening the path to assisted/surrogate conception/adoption,  To take those points in turn: A - Notwithstanding the fact that many of us do not believe God has prohibited same sex intercourse,  people who get married quite possibly may not be asking God to bless them. This is just a simple fact of the society we live in. To deny that makes an assumption that something shouldn't be allowed because it disagrees with the world view of one section of society. B - As I understand it, civil partners can already adopt. They can also concieve with the help of friends. In every way civil partnerships confer on their members the same rights as marriage, with the exception of calling their union a marriage, so I fail to see what difference the same-sex marriage proposals make in this case. One final point - it's important to realise that the issue is deeper than "gay" marriage. We're talking about any two people being able to marry, regardless of their sex or sexual orientation. This opens up marriage to people who have changed sex and also bisexual people who happen to be wanting to marry someone of their own sex. Of course a bisexual person who wants to marry someone of the same sex is already free to do so, as is a gay person who for whatever reason wants to get married to someone of the opposite sex. Society does not make judgements on those people, they are merely allowed to marry.      
 Posted by: NormanP  Monday 21 January 2013 - 01:10pm
  Bowman. The development of the Roman law regarding the 'power of the father' would indeed seem to shed light on the difficult question of how the Leviticus law might have originated as well as how it came to be considered subsequently. It was actually a related Roman custom which suggested to me the idea of a military origin for the Leviticus prohibition. Or rather it was an exception to the normally hierarchical customs of the Romans regarding sex between males: within the Roman army it was unthinkable for a soldier to be the passive partner of a physical homosexual act. There was a court case described by Plutarch where a soldier was acquitted of murdering his commanding officer, and commended, for this reason. In Ancient Greek states, being a passive homosexual partner was considered incompatible with citizenship. In contrast with, say, the Canaanites, all Israelite males were, in effect, citizens. Both ideas seem to me to be at least as plausible as the traditional explanations of the Leviticus law. But I would be very interested to hear more of what those familiar with Hebrew have to say about these verses in Scripture, and more about the context of whatever century it is thought they were written in.
 Posted by: User 4985  Monday 21 January 2013 - 09:52am
I wonder if we could engage much mroe closely with the tiny number of Bible texts about sex in their integrity, and be very wary of turning them into soundbite shibboleths? In a weekend with a cancellation (thus unexpected free time) I've returned to Leviticus 18.22: ᅰᄚ￐ᄊ↑-ᅱ즤ᄌ│--ᅵᄍ￐ ↑ᄡ←￁ᄚᅴᄐᄋ￑  I quite understand — a prohibition that parallels that on adultery with a neighbour's wife in verse 20. but having been trained in these matters alongside rabbis, the rabbinic mind the asks Why ￞ᄡ←￁ᄚᅴᄐᄚ￑ᄉ￙ ￐ᄡ←ᄐ￁줘? What exactly are those "lyings" and why is the extra clause good and necessary? I also see, in notes from OT study long ago, a protest against Calvin's rather artificial proposal to categorise two sorts of "↑퉤ᄍ¬ᄉ￑줘" so that he could absolutise some and ignore others — an entirely synthetic imposition on the text that would horrify the rabbinic mind.
 Posted by: Bowman  Monday 21 January 2013 - 07:09am
Of all the posts on all the threads, Tom's 22911 of 20th January below comes closest to describing the "centrist" position in debate on That Topic. A few past posts have come close, but he has hit the nail soundly on the head and driven it in. Fairly or not, every other position occupies a longitude and latitude measured from this point where the Greenwich meridian of realism crosses the Equator of compassion. One can feel strong conviction in support of other views, of course, and some of those views have wide if shallow public support, but without persuading most committed Christians who feel as Tom does to agree with them, one cannot think with the Church and move forward with it in unity. Those with less centrist views than Tom's may not be wrong, but if they believe that they are right, then it would be prudent for them to stop squabbling with other eccentrics, and to take note of this deep reality. The debate with enduring consequences is a dialogue with this point of view.
 Posted by: Bowman  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 08:57pm
David B-- Thank you very much for your 22865 of the 17th January, which suggests that "God's commanding is what makes a moral law," and that God's people have obligations under it that are more stringent than those they share with others as human beings or fellow citizens. This alternate way of thinking of Article VII, Leviticus, and scriptural prohibitions of homosexual acts is not without consequences for political theology-- you suggest that the public and ecclesial moralities for same sex marriage are not the same. # Though you mention "Reformed (and Anglican) tradition" (who do you have in mind?), my own thoughts travel elsewhere-- to the work of Stanley Hauerwas and the Anabaptist tradition before him (which do not suppose that Christian morality is a universal morality), and to some younger Reformed voices today who propose "R2K" (= Radical Two Kingdoms doctrine = a postmodern revision of Luther's Two Kingdoms) as a way of releasing the state from covenant morality whilst enjoining the Church to teach and obey it with fewer concessions to a secular culture. # Are we framing our own discussion here in the right way? The partisan uses of controversies over "same sex marriage"-- first in the US, getting out the Evangelical vote for Republican presidential candidates, and now in the UK, making the prospect of a longer Conservative government palatable to progressive voters-- are obvious. Where partisans in governments decide the substance of the proposals debated, it is especially important to be wary.
 Posted by: Deleted user 4983  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 06:59pm
What saddens me somewhat in reading Steve's article is his apparent acceptance of the fact that the right to a "stable, monogamous relationship" is a given; Christianity requires chastity from many other than gay people. He also seems to shy away from specifically talking about a sexual relationship, which is unfortunately the nitty gritty of what we're talking about here, isn't it? I'm not saying that that the only thing a homosexual couple have in their relationship is sex - far from it - but is the only thing actually objected to by the church. Other countries are far less reactionary towards close brotherly love; if a couple of men decided they were not sexually attracted to women, and wanted to live together for convenience and companionship, I would not see any Biblical issue here. Neither even in making legal note of their particular strong friendship so that accounts could be shared, inheritance easily be passed to the other person etc (I.e. a civil partnership, or thereabouts). These men could be (and I would wager have been often in the past, but remaining under the radar) wonderful servants of the church or society, putting to good use the time that for others is absorbed in the rearing of children. And personally, I would see it as being up to these men's consciences and honest understandings of scripture as to whether they engage in any sexual activity, in the same way that it is up to me not to steal or lie, and if I do, to decide whether or not I tell the vicar. What I cannot see any provision for in scripture is the request that God bless a sexual union between two men, nor can I see any argument to suggest that gay partnerships are an acceptable unit from which to raise children. I believe that children need, not just a male and a female role model, but the different influences the male and female sex provide; women often providing the nurturing, unconditionally loving atmosphere, but later (particularly for boys) the father introducing an element of danger and adventure. This is seen clearly and beautifully in the Australian aboriginal social setup of adolescent boys growing up to "go walkabout". I believe there are so many ways in which a biological mother and father are designed to raise a child (and surely hundreds that we yet have no understanding of), that to deconstruct this ideal in the name of equality so that a small minority do not feel their sexual preferences are being sidelined strikes me as foolishness in the extreme. That is why I oppose gay marriage; because married families are the structural cells of society (at least, our society). To make life easier for gay people to have legally recognised "companionships" is one thing, and outside of the church, if these are also sexual relationships, whatever! It's not for me to interfere and is less damaging to society in my opinion than heterosexual unmarried couples having children and then separating, or people engaging in casual sex (naturally a gay union will obviously not result in a child). But when we talk of "marriage", inside or outside the church, we A) talk about asking to for God to bless as sacred something he has clearly prohibited (same sex intercourse) and B) quite deliberately opening the path to assisted/surrogate conception/adoption, I.e. declaring that a same sex marriage is in all ways equal to that of a heterosexual one. If Steve Chalke things that they are equal, than I strongly disagree with him. And what concerns me about his article is that the current status of civil partnerships make it very easy to talk about "stable homosexual relationships". It's called marriage, Steve. Heterosexual couples should wait until they are married - I.e. a lifelong commitment which is not just a romantic declaration of emotional love but a sacred and social contract (which both husband and wife will at times find expectedly difficult to keep) specifically created to forge the strongest bond possible on which to base the raising of the next generation. Presumably we are going to expect the same of celibate gay courting couples? How many of those are there, incidentally? The fact that marriage has been so tragically undermined by all sorts of factors in our society does not in my opinion mean we should join in with coming up with new definitions to suit ourselves.
 Posted by: Deleted user 4983  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 06:58pm
What saddens me somewhat in reading Steve's article is his apparent acceptance of the fact that the right to a "stable, monogamous relationship" is a given; Christianity requires chastity from many other than gay people. He also seems to shy away from specifically talking about a sexual relationship, which is unfortunately the nitty gritty of what we're talking about here, isn't it? I'm not saying that that the only thing a homosexual couple have in their relationship is sex - far from it - but is the only thing actually objected to by the church. Other countries are far less reactionary towards close brotherly love; if a couple of men decided they were not sexually attracted to women, and wanted to live together for convenience and companionship, I would not see any Biblical issue here. Neither even in making legal note of their particular strong friendship so that accounts could be shared, inheritance easily be passed to the other person etc (I.e. a civil partnership, or thereabouts). These men could be (and I would wager have been often in the past, but remaining under the radar) wonderful servants of the church or society, putting to good use the time that for others is absorbed in the rearing of children. And personally, I would see it as being up to these men's consciences and honest understandings of scripture as to whether they engage in any sexual activity, in the same way that it is up to me not to steal or lie, and if I do, whether I tell the vicar or not. What I cannot see any provision for in scripture is the request that God bless a sexual union between two men, nor can I see any argument to suggest that gay partnerships are an acceptable unit from which to raise children. I believe that children need, not just a male and a female role model, but the different influences the male and female sex provide; women often providing the nurturing, unconditionally loving atmosphere, but later (particularly for boys) the father introducing an element of danger and adventure. This is seen clearly and beautifully in the Australian aboriginal social setup of adolescent boys growing up to "go walkabout". I believe there are so many ways in which a biological mother and father are designed to raise a child (and surely hundreds that we yet have no understanding of), that to deconstruct this ideal in the name of equality so that a small minority do not feel their sexual preferences are being sidelined strikes me as foolishness in the extreme. That is why I oppose gay marriage; because married families are the structural cells of society (at least, our society). To make life easier for gay people to have legally recognised "companionships" is one thing, and outside of the church, if these are also sexual relationships, whatever! It's not for me to interfere and is less damaging to society in my opinion than heterosexual unmarried couples having children and then separating, or people engaging in casual sex (naturally a gay union will obviously not result in a child). But when we talk of "marriage", inside or outside the church, we A) talk about asking to for God to bless as sacred something he has clearly prohibited (same sex intercourse) and B) quite deliberately opening the path to assisted/surrogate conception/adoption, I.e. declaring that a same sex marriage is in all ways equal to that of a heterosexual one. If Steve Chalke things that they are equal, than I strongly disagree with him. And what concerns me about his article is that the current status of civil partnerships make it very easy to talk about "stable homosexual relationships". It's called marriage, Steve. Heterosexual couples should wait until they are married - I.e. a lifelong commitment which is not just a romantic declaration of emotional love but a sacred and social contract (which both husband and wife will at times find expectedly difficult to keep) specifically created to forge the strongest bond possible on which to base the raising of the next generation. Presumably we are going to expect the same of celibate gay courting couples? How many of those are there, incidentally? The fact that marriage has been so tragically undermined by all sorts of factors in our society does not in my opinion mean we should join in with coming up with new definitions to suit ourselves.
 Posted by: Stephen Kuhrt  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 02:36pm
We have had to clarify our policy regarding the approval/non approval of posts a number of times over the years but just to state it once again, Fulcrum tries very hard not to censor posts unless they are, in our opinion (1) Needlessly offensive or (2) Needlessly repetitive. The recent exchange between Peter and Origen Adam could appear to come into the first of these categories but both are making points that they feel are crucial to state if this issue is discussed in a truthful manner. Combining principles (1) and (2) above we consider that these points have now been made and don't need to be restated or necessarily expanded!
 Posted by: DavidR  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 09:45am
Fulcrum moderators, Peter and OA  I am with Bowman. Please. This is not the place, nor any of our business.
 Posted by: Bowman  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 02:50am
NormanP-- Might the Israelite proscriptions of homosexual acts have been analogous to the Roman "power of the father"-- the divine legal expression of a distinguishing principle of family and social order? # The Romans used the father's power of life and death over all in his family, defined in the Twelve Tables, first to distinguish themselves from the matrilineal Etruscans, and then to distinguish themselves from the less hierarchical subject peoples in their empire. However, by the end of the Republic, the praetors had made it practically impossible for a father to actually execute a child or wife, and the law of sale had been used to create some negotiated rights for wives. The law remained, but the principle could be maintained without rigourously enforcing it. # Similarly, one might see Leviticus as an analogous statement of a distinctive social order, in this case one that prioritised the relationship of husbands and wives, first over against the hedonism of other ANE cultures, and then later over against the phallocratic mores of Hellenism (cf Plato's Socrates and Alcibiades). The latter were only finally supplanted late in antiquity, but actual executions of homosexuals must have ended, even among the Jews, centuries before. The law remained, but the principle could be maintained without rigourously enforcing it.
 Posted by: Bowman  Sunday 20 January 2013 - 01:58am
Perry Butler-- Yes, I agree. Acceptance that birth control per se is not illicit upset a confident consensus with dizzying speed, which in itself begs historical explanation. Moreover, the rationale for that acceptance remains controversial, even where the practise itself is not, because it has been cited to support positions on adolescence, parenting, fornication, abortion, homosexuality, selective IVF, etc, some of which were scarcely imaginable in 1958. Meanwhile, the meta-ethical suppositions of that time have been challenged with unabated creativity ever since Elizabeth Anscombe published her landmark paper "Modern Moral Philosophy" in that same year. We might today reach the same conclusions, but we would not reach them with the same confidence or for the same reasons. Heraclitus was right to say that "one cannot dip into the same river twice," but as the acceptance of birth control is the source of the stream we navigate today, it would be good to know how it came to be.
 Posted by: Peter Ould  Saturday 19 January 2013 - 10:42pm
Just a cursory reading of one or two comment threads on my site will show anybody who cares to see that a wide range of views interact within what is regarded by many as a safe space to discuss indepth issues around human sexuality and sexual identity. I only ban people on my blog when they use derogatory language and start insulting other commentators, and sadly it tends to be conservatives rather than liberals who get banned. As for the issue at hand; after James began writing hugely insulting remarks on my blog I banned him from doing so. He then took to Facebook launching a tirade of insulting posts about myself **and my children** which meant I had to block him there as well. If anyone wants to see those posts and comments I am more than happy to publish them for the public record. At the same time I am more than happy for James to publish any of our previous correspondence to present any evidence of me publicly insuting him or using derogatory language about him. However, such evidence does not exist so let's drop this "both as bad as each other" rubbish because the facts speak otherwise. And now I'm going to bed because tomorrow I have to be in Woking to have a proper adult and respectful public conversation with Steve Chalke on this issue.
 Posted by: Bowman  Saturday 19 January 2013 - 05:28pm
Peter Ould, Origin Adam-- I am grateful to both of you for past written work that has sharpened my understanding and has showed due consideration for the views of the other side. I have quoted you both in posts of my own here. So I am sorry that the moderators approved your last, rather personal posts; I thought that you were bigger men. Obviously, I have no knowledge whatever of the personal history there, but what sprang to mind on reading your posts below was not pots and kettles, but the many scriptures on anger and reconciliation. Surely they are as inspired as any of the others we discuss here? You two disagree on a matter with high stakes, and as none of us here has perfect self-control, so none of us could fault you for having, like ourselves, high feelings that colour your judgement unwisely. We all repent daily or we are not in Him. However, you can see for yourselves how unlike all the other posts in this thread your angry posts are. To my eyes, they fall a long way from your best contributions to our understanding. Brothers, our conversation here has moved on from some you may remember from the past, and another villager was right to call us all to vigilance as the church we all love begins a most contentious year. The hatred of men does not illumine the Word. Perhaps the honour of God and the health of your souls should incline you to seek pastoral help offline to deal with your sinful conflict and be reconciled in the Lord? "Teach us to number our days, and incline our hearts to wisdom."
 Posted by: Deleted user 2383  Saturday 19 January 2013 - 03:34pm
Pots and kettles spring to mind here. I used to attend the same church as Peter Ould many years ago and he upset me greatly by his behaviour towards me at the time. I'm not sure if my position challenged his or whether he just doesn't like me, but we have history ;) Peter is also well known in cyberspace for taking strong stances against his opponents. I have tried to discuss gently with him via his blog but he just removed my comments and has now banned me. Instead he launched an ad hominem attack on me because I attended a fancy dress party dressed as a nun! So much for being “interested in dialogue.” My previous comment was my knee-jerk response to Martin Kuhrt's article, which in turn seemed to be a knee-jerk response to Steve's. I genuinely don't believe this was written in the spirit that Steve would have us discuss things. And I stand by my assertion that it will just not do to classify gay people as part of the “judgement on the whole of godless society” and our sexuality a “prominent feature in a spiralling down into general depravity.” Nor will it do to say that God has “cursed” our way of life. There are plenty of gay christians who are active in churches all over the world who are doing good works and are full of the fruit of the Spirit. Saying God somehow curses our lives is completely reprehensible!
 Posted by: Perry Butler  Saturday 19 January 2013 - 10:22am
"I sense with grim foreboding that this year will bring much strife and disunity to the church." Perhaps we should re-visit the Anglican debate on the licitness of artificial contraception between 1880 and 1958 to shed light on how things like this have been handled by our church. It is a great pity that no scholarly study exists as far as I know..I am sure it would be illuminating. Perry Butler
 Posted by: NormanP  Saturday 19 January 2013 - 09:15am
  One of the striking things about the prohibitions of Leviticus 18 v.22 and 20 v.13 is that within the Ancient World they were counter-cultural. Other nations had laws relating to sex which were permissive, so within this context these Levitical laws stand out. But the precise context is unclear. As one Church of England study put it: 'Where there is disagreement is not about whether these texts condemn homosexuality but why they do so.' *   As I read more history books than theological, I have a curiosity about what actually happened underneath the story portrayed by the historical text. What was it like to be there (and perhaps even to witness this ongoing conversation between Yahweh and Israel referred to by Steve Chalke)? Surely it must have been one of the most terrifying places and times in which to live in human history, where every square yard of the Fertile Crescent was being fought over. Most of us today live in rather more pleasant and settled surroundings.   'There is a continuing debate about the date and origin of the book of Leviticus, but what is clear is that the function of the book of Leviticus within the Old Testament canon is to bear witness to God's summons to Israel to live as a holy nation.'* As Martin puts it: 'These commands must all have been clearly moral ones if the pagan nations were condemned for breaching them.' But we can't leave it there. Condemnation, in theory at any rate, was to take the form of the killing by the Israelites of all the people living in the Promised Land!   In this way two of the most contentious issues that those of us who have a 'high' view of Scripture have to face come together, homosexuality and Holy War. The prohibition of homosexual activity would fit into the need to harden up a people-in-arms to the task, not of just killing other men in battle, but killing everybody else when the battle was over. There are, of course, many examples throughout history of homosexuality being frowned upon by military authorities (the Sacred Band of the Ancient Greek city of Thebes being the exception). The Leviticus prohibition would seem to fit in with the peculiar demands of the Holy War commanded by God.   At the very least, the fact that these laws apparently arose within a nation in arms should give us pause before assuming that they should have any validity at all in the New dispensation.   * 'Some issues in human sexuality A guide to the debate' Church House Publishing 2003
 Posted by: Bowman  Saturday 19 January 2013 - 06:52am
DavidR, Ian Paul, Roger Hurding, James Mercer-- Amen, brothers! # Henceforth, editors everywhere might best serve their readers by helping them to understand the "pastoral and practical" reality of the choices actually being made about homosexuality on the ground, which do occasion theological reflection beyond the favourite arguments and prooftexts of happy warriors who never tire of combat. # In 2013, Steve Chalke is interesting to most of us here, not for his biblical scholarship, but for the path he is choosing amid the challenges that James Mercer has described so well below. It is unfortunate that Chalke's essay is not less about him and more about what he does, how that actually works, and what he, as a pastor, thinks about that. It is likewise unfortunate that the reply to him in the magazine itself was, less a thoughtful critical reflection on that practice-- or a description of an alternative innovation for comparison-- than a critique of his apologia. Alas, the editorial frame around both seems more fitting for a fight than for the exploration of new patterns of ministry meant to help people with an unusually high risk for depression and suicide. Please note-- the fairminded readers of today are not a bit less interested in any fresh initiatives for homosexuals that may come from more conservative pastors. And were these to be reported, they would be no less bored by stale criticisms of the innovators' views on slavery, women, the Six Texts, etc. If what they try works, it works, and if it doesn't, we will not know know why it doesn't if the only critique of it we hear is yet another snarky disquisition upon the superior biblical hermeneutics of Wilberforce. # It was a happy day for medicine when Paracelsans and Galenists began to put saving patients' lives ahead of rival displays of classical learning. And that suggests the main way in which too much that we see is out of date-- it still implicitly treats a homosexual as a novel theological problem or a canonical conundrum or a exotic beetle from the tropics rather than as, first and foremost, a child of God at serious risk now for which a pastor might have serious responsibility today. Imagine-- a Galenist starts to set broken legs in a new way, and all London is abuzz with Paracelsans decrying his ignorance of antiquarian lore, thus reopening the old feud. Then one day, it is realised that the medical question is-- whether the patient can rise and walk. Perhaps they recalled that they had heard of something like this in church...
 Posted by: DavidR  Friday 18 January 2013 - 09:16pm
Roger and James - Yes. Thank you both! 
 Posted by: James Mercer  Friday 18 January 2013 - 06:35pm
  I know - I’ve heard the theology argued backwards and forwards. Some of it’s good, some of it’s less good. Some makes sense. Some I wish made more sense. And yes, I know, theology informs pastoral practice - but pastoral practice of course also informs theology (viz. Steve Chalke). That’s what for me made Matthew Grayshon’s recent Fulcrum article so honest - a pastoral response to a presenting need - theology not (necessarily) withstanding. When all the arguments and counter arguments have come and gone, and all the theologizing has been done, how do I, a parish priest in North West London, wanting the best for those in my care, respond pastorally, lovingly, with integrity, to two people in a committed, stable same sex relationship within my congregation? Are they included, but not quite fully accepted; ignored by a blind eye; invited to be celibate (not something I would wish to consider for myself); welcomed (providing they don't serve on the leadership team); informed that their relationship may not be God’s best intention for them - but, hey, welcome none-the-less; or accepted as they are, for who they are - encouraged to flourish and seek to realize their full humanity?  Sometimes this backwards-and-forwards theology is just plain confusing and charitable pragmatism seems the only realistic option...  So please don’t offer a theological treatise in reply - unless it’s generous and genuinely liberating.
 Posted by: Roger Hurding  Friday 18 January 2013 - 05:28pm
Martin's critique of Steve Chalke's article, as well as countering his emphasis in drawing parallels in biblical interpretation between the issues of slavery and women priests with that of gay relationships, accuses Chalke of seemingly allowing himself 'to be conformed to the pattern of this world.' Steve Clifford of the Evangelical Alliance does the same when he fears that Chalke 'has succumbed to' producing 'a god in our own likeness or in the likeness of the culture in which we find ourselves.' This is a criticism that is frequently shaped by evangelicals where the interpretation of scripture by a fellow evangelical comes to a different conclusion to their own.  There's a tendency in fact for such critics to see the 'revisionist' voice as betraying evangelicalism itself. As Simon points out, we all have short memories!  Many evangelicals have (and still do) accused fellow Christians as stepping away from evangelicalsim in their support of women as priests, and now as bishops.  And, in earlier times, similar accusations, I suspect, were levelled at slavery abolitionists such as Wilberforce. Let us give Steve Chalke the credit for his courageous stand, which has been made foundationally in his revisiting of the bible's 'anti-gay' texts.  His clarification of his thinking is also shaped by his pastoral concerns for gay Christians struggling with their sense of identity and need, like us all, for love, acceptance and support.  Such contextual compassion should not be accused of simply 'conforming to the pattern of this world'.  It's an incarnational and redemptive theology that takes seriously what is observable in our everyday lives.
 Posted by: Peter Ould  Friday 18 January 2013 - 05:20pm
It's very interesting that James (Origen Adam) can't distinguish between someone describing a specific sexual act as sinful and describing someone with a disposition to perform such an act as sinful. No-one is saying that being gay is a choice as it is not. What they are saying is that we all choose what we do with our temptations, whether to satisfy them or resist them (which is often very hard). Indeed, James would be minded himself to heed the words of Steve who asked us to have a conversation about this issue. It seems James is not interested in dialogue in the slightest, but rather that everyone should immediately surrender to his position or be labelled a bigot and homophobe (as he will no doubt demonstrate in his response to me).
 Posted by: Laurence C.  Friday 18 January 2013 - 03:58pm
What Origen Adam said.  Martin Kuhrt's piece is scapegoating pure and simple, all the more unpleasant because of its academic gloss and condescending references to 'Pastoral Care'. There aren't theological figleaves large enough to hide the ugliness of its core message.
 Posted by: DavidR  Friday 18 January 2013 - 11:31am
Ian Greetings.  Well dip your toe in with brief comments and you easily end up being told off for not being in the deep end. Fair enough but don't assume I swallowed either side whole here please.  I did not know the context of the Chalke article - thanks for the pointer. My criticisms of some of Martin's generalised comments stand, I think. I actually said, 'Neither he nor Martin are adding anything new in this debate actually. I suggested that personal engagement with Godly Gay Christians (not the 'debate') forces questions beyond the familiar traditional arguments. I also made clear that this did not prejudge the possibility of still respectfully disagreeing with a more inclusive view.  Your booklet was, and is, very helpful. Thank you
 Posted by: Simon Morden  Friday 18 January 2013 - 11:17am
Ian - you say "To say that the bible clearly teaches women cannot teach is just extraordinary." You have to give some ground here, because that is exactly what the text says, and some/many here insist on that interpretation as being the only one possible. Nothing extraordinary about it - it's what almost two thousand years of church tradition upholds. I'm surprised by your surprise. What Steve Chalke is arguing for is that the same hermeneutic that is applied to those verses (about the role of women) needs to be applied to those other verses (about homosexuality), as they have been applied to verses about slavery or the Copernican revolution. You should not dismiss his engagement with the text as disengagement, especially as he's using the same hermeneutical tool as is used to support women in the church. He may be using the tool wrongly, but some of Martin Kuhrt's criticisms of Chalke's position are simply crass. The church did support slavery. The church did support the oppression of women. It used scripture to do so. Chalke uses these examples precisely because they make us feel uncomfortable, and not because these interpretations are "woefully simplistic" or the "most chauvinistic, reactionary and crudely unintelligent interpretations of texts". Lest we forget - those interpretations were our interpretations. The church held them, and believed them for centuries. I can't pretend that isn't true, and neither should Steve Chalke, Martin or you. These things have to simply be part of the conversation, no matter how embarassed we are by that.
 Posted by: Ian Paul  Friday 18 January 2013 - 10:17am
Origen Adam, I'm afraid that on 1 Timothy 2 your comments are way off the mark. Having spent the last three years doing quite a lot of research on this, I can assure you that Martin's comments are accurate. There is no sense in which this text is 'clear', neither is there a sense in which this text functions as a prohibition on women speaking and teaching the church. The opponents of women bishops have propagated this (I'm afraid to say) rather ignorant and simplistic reading, and I think it is a measure of Steve's engagement in the debate that he swallows this misleading suggestion hook, line and sinker.
 Posted by: Ian Paul  Friday 18 January 2013 - 10:13am
David, I quite understand your concern about the knee jerk reaction. But I think there are some important things to bear in mind. Firstly, I don't know if you were aware that Steve Chalke's comments were not presented in isolation. When the edition of Christianity magazine comes out, you will see that it has been published as one of a number of different perspectives. The article that follows his is a systematic refutation of Steve's comments particularly about the biblical texts, but also more widely about both the debate, and the pastoral dynamics involved. Secondly, I am really curious that you criticise Martin Kuhrt for recycling the same old arguments. This is exactly what Steve Chalke's article is doing on the other side! Many of us were disappointed that he couldn't say anything better or anything new. Worse than that, his handling of the biblical texts is truly abysmal. To say that the bible clearly teaches women cannot teach is just extraordinary. He really needs to read my Grove booklet! (I'm surprised you yourself did not pick up on this.) And in returning to the same old arguments that the homosexuality in the Bible does not connect with the homosexuality we see around us is to ignore both major writings and major elements of the debate from the last 20 years. You seem to suggest that the only reason Steve could have changed his mind was because of a serious engagement with the debate. I'm afraid that most people reading this will actually see that Steve has changed his mind because of a serious disengagement with the debate.
 Posted by: DavidR  Friday 18 January 2013 - 09:17am
The significance of what is being believed, said and done at this point surely lies in who is believing, saying and doing it. Steve Chalke is a highly respected senior evangelical leader. He will not have come to this lightly or hastily. It is also very courageous and I am grateful. So I wish there could be a pause after such an initiative rather than quick counters. Martin's response can't quite avoid a whiff of 'quick shut the door' even if he undoubtedly intends differently. But do we really think Steve Chalke and his community haven't engaged with all those texts and arguments at length? Neither he nor Martin are adding anything new in this debate actually (- and sadly that includes the offensive stereotype summaries of gay character and behaviour that Origen Adam rightly protests to Martin about). So what brings a mature evangelical church leader to such a bold shift in biblical theology and pastoral ministry - and at undoubted personal cost? I recognise some of my own path on his words. Like many others my pilgrimage and ministry has been enriched  by journeying with fellow Christans whose commitment to Christ, depth of discipleship, fidelity to scripture and quality of relationships has been a constant challenge and support - and who are gay.  You do find yourself revisiting the 'texts' and are left with a feeling that whatever they are condemning there it is clearly not this. I stil may not end up agreeing but I cannot just recycle the old arguments. The other realisation is that many of these fellow pilgrims feel obliged to live a central part of their lives in secrecy and have therefore relied for  their Christian nourishment, on the crumbs that fall from the table of the tables of the heterosexual 'righteous'. Truly there is more to admire and learn from than condemn here. 
 Posted by: David B  Thursday 17 January 2013 - 10:29pm
In the hope of clarifing this and other analyses, I'd like to ask if careful interpretation of Exodus 20 and directly related passages in the Pentateuch (and of Romans 2:14-15) can sustain the Reformed (and Anglican) tradition that seems to imply that God's commanding is what makes a moral law. The 6th to 10th commandments, like the 1st to 5th, identify sins against God, not unethical treatment of others. God telling his people not to murder is not what makes it ethically wrong, i.e. immoral for everybody.  It's the offence against the victim, those who know the victim and all humanity.  Murder is in addition gross sacrilege for a Christian or a Jew.  - And Jesus, like Moses, put such lack of love for God first on the list. Allowing for this possibility (even if not accepting it) strengthens the argument, over the range from slavery to marital unfaithfulness (and lack of care for older people), unlike the subjective distinction between "ceremonial" and moral laws, leading to confusion about Leviticus 18:19 (quotation below): sub-Christian insensitivity is nothing like marital rape!  What God's followers should do about faithful homosexual partnerships is far more demanding than what they should argue is morally incumbent on all to do.   "The one puzzling command in Leviticus 18 verse 19 which forbids a man from approaching a woman for sex during her period. This appears to be a ritual or ceremonial law only, because it doesn’t seem to us today that it is immoral to have intercourse during menstruation. ... Women were given some dignity and protection within marriage ... and therefore [this] was a moral command as well as a ritual and ceremonial law.'"      
 Posted by: User 4974  Thursday 17 January 2013 - 07:15pm
Martin, I can't help but think that such an intellectual effort with so many sriptural references and such straining to cover every possible angle of attack must mask a deep seated doubt that you're missing something. If we have to work so hard to persuade one another what God is trying to tell us, perhaps in truth it really isn't that clear and we need to spend a little more time in prayer before we continue what is becoming a very sterile and painfully academic debate. With all good wishes.
 Posted by: Deleted user 2383  Thursday 17 January 2013 - 05:06pm
After having been part of Steve's church at Oasis for a year now, I would say that this is a fair representation of his beliefs. “It was clearly a ritual or ceremonial law designed to be appropriate for Old Testament times as part of the old covenant but not part of the new when the sacrificial system has been fulfilled in Christ.” No, it was just bigoted. They thought that God had made them disabled to punish them for their parents sins. Steve is completely correct when he says that Romans 1 doesn't reflect the characters of LGBT people and it is entirely horrible to lump us in with such sinners and say that our lives are representative of the general depravity of society. As I said on the EA website, “LGBT people aren't stealing off people like a dishonest tax-collector, we're not extorting money and accusing people falsely, we don't use violence, we don't sell sex - so please stop comparing us to these sort of people! We are just normal people like yourself who wish to be married like yourself. Trying to make us out as sinners who need to repent just won't do.” “In the Old Testament and New slavery was often the lesser of two evils...” Here you seem to be arguing that slavery was okay. How bizarre! Do you think we should return to a society which allows Biblical slavery?? “Chalke needs to do some more study on 1 Timothy 2...” And I suggest you do too! 1 Timothy 2 clearly states that women shouldn't teach or be in authority because of the created order. Whatever clever exegesis you try, you'll never spin your way out of this passage without just ignoring it. I also suggest you read what interpretation Roman Catholic theologians make. “Chalke doesn’t engage at all with the view that disciples of Christ cannot defiantly and unrepentantly persist in identifying themselves as belonging to a class or people who are defined by behaviour which is sinful.” This is just really offensive! “We do not and should not welcome into intimate fellowship or leadership gossips, slanderers, God-haters, heartless, faithless, senseless people as gossips, slanderers, God-haters, heartless, faithless, senseless people. And the offence continues :( As I wrote above, it will not do to classify LGBT people like this. You need to do some serious repenting. “It is not loving to commend a way of life as blessed which God has cursed.” And it goes on! This is just quite extraordinary. How would you feel if people said this about you?? “It is not loving to promote behaviour that has inherent and manifest health risks.” Maybe you could let us know the health risks that life-long monogamous relationships cause? “another selfish manifestation of individual bourgeois choice” I cannot say what I'd like to here as Fulcrum will ban my response – but you really need to take time out and reflect on the shocking things that you and your brother write about us gay people. As I wrote in another of my comments on the EA website, “For me, the Amalekite question is the one that clarifies this issue. Do you, like John Piper, assert that God really did tell Saul to "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys"? I would suggest that He didn't.”
 Posted by: Rev Paul  Thursday 17 January 2013 - 04:23pm
Although one might disagree with Steve Chalke's conclusions, I think it has to be said that he is perhaps the first high profile evangelical to try to engage in the debate using the language of evangelical biblical studies. Up to now the two sides of the debate have been speaking different languages, and have not really listened to each other. That said, the area of biblical debate is limited to such a small amount of scripture that I wonder if it really is a 'secondary' issue rather than 'primary'.
 Posted by: Richard W  Thursday 17 January 2013 - 04:04pm
Let's suppose that the author of the article is correct, and "Homosexual practices and drives are a judgment on the whole of godless society rather than on a few, especially evil, people". How would that make it right for the church to cause further anguish on those "afflicted" by homosexual drives by denying them the right to a lifelong partnership, or continuing to stigmatise such a partnership where available?
 Posted by: Stephen Kuhrt  Thursday 17 January 2013 - 03:12pm
We have just published Scriptural Faithfulness, Inclusion and Truth in Pastoral Care: A Response to Steve Chalke by Martin Kuhrt. Please use this thread for discussion.

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